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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:03 am 
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This is a followup to this thread from early summer: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3283

Once again, apologies for length/wordiness. Deal with it. At the risk of coming across as overly egoic, I'm going to start by quoting myself:
Quote:
"I am an oak tree, she is a bird who was happily sitting on my branch, but now she’s gotten all chirpy and agitated and took off for a flight. If she comes back and lands on my branch again - fine with me. If she keeps flying to another tree somewhere else - also fine with me. That will free me up to let another bird (or birds) come sit on my branch."

"Sometimes the bird gets all antsy just needs to take a little flight to realize that she actually liked the branch she was sitting on. Sometimes she takes her flight and winds up on another branch that might be better/worse/the same."

"The oak tree doesn't try to reach out and grab a bird that is flying by. The oak tree has branches that are nice to perch on. What this forum is about is teaching oak trees to not try to use their branches like arms, to not try to reach out and grab birds that are flying by. Imagine such a silly thing - an oak tree trying with all its might to move its branches in order to grab a bird. The oak tree is only deluding itself if it thinks that is a good idea. Oak branches aren't built to do that kind of thing.

No, instead this forum teaches you to make your branches better to perch on, and if they are better to perch on, birds will see that, and they will come perch."
And in my last update from that thread from July:
Quote:
"So where it stands now is that she took a flight away from my very nice oak tree branch, and it looks like she decided she wants to come back in and perch on the branch a bit more, but she botched the landing, missed the branch I had out for her, and she crashed to the ground, and now its going to be 3 weeks before she's up flying again. What great comedy! I'm so glad I get to experience this - what fun. And you guys get to have fun hearing about it too...

So for now:
To be continued..."
--------------

This girl told me she didn't want to date anymore in early June. Then on July 4th she followed me to a party and then got drunk, lay down on my lap and started kissing my neck, but then puked from the alcohol and I walked her to her house and put her to bed at 7pm before going back out and partying. Then on July 5th she left for work for 3 weeks. While she was off working (in another state) they offered her a nice raise if she would agree to keep working there for 2.5 more months, so she did that. She finished work in late september, but instead of coming back to my city right away, she went on a road trip to visit friends and family for over a month. She came back to my city in early November, so she was gone for 4 months.

We had chatted on FB twice during the 4 months. Pretty inane short little conversations, but we did at one point mention hanging out and catching up when she got back in the fall. So when she gets back, she starts showing up to the same social events as me, since while we were dating in the spring she became good friends with a bunch of people in my social circle. The chemistry is still very strong. She's giving me the same doe-eyes as the first time I hung out with her last February. She does things like sitting next to me and leaning in and nestling in under my arm when I lean back with my arms up on the back of a couch, or standing with a group in a circle she'll make sure she's next to me, and she'll slowly inch closer until she's very gently brushing/leaning up against me. Very simple/obvious analysis shows she is still choosing me, strongly.

I reciprocate all her subtle behavior at the same level she is showing. I like what this girl brings to the table, and I am still open to being involved with her, so I use body language and reciprocation to communicate that. I'm also dating other girls at this time, so I don't push or rush anything and I give her plenty of space too.

My buddy is close with her, so pretty quick after she gets back he gets the whole run down on her summer. She met some guy and they started dating in August, then they officially became "boyfriend/girlfriend" in September and he came along with her for the first half of her October road trip. The second half of her road trip was visiting family, so he didn't go along for that part. Now here's the kicker with the guy - she moved back to my city, and he's still down where she was working, which is about an 8 hour drive. She's going to go back down there next June to work again, but between November and June he has no specific plans to come visit her, and she had no specific plans to visit him. My buddy questioned her as to what the point of having a boyfriend was if they dated for 2 months and then she wasn't going to see him for probably 7 months. She admitted to my buddy that it didn't really make sense and she wasn't super happy with it.

---
One night we're all hanging at my house, watching a movie, and I'm kind of half cuddling with her during the movie. After the movie is over, people get up and leave fairly quickly, and its just me and her left. We sit there chatting, still kind of half cuddling, and at some point there's the pregnant awkward silence that signifies its time to kiss, so I slowly lean in to kiss her and she lets our lips touch for a moment, but then she pulls back and stands up. She says that she had better go, to which I tell her that she should do what she feels comfortable with. She lingers there, standing for a minute or so, even though we're not really talking or anything and then she leaves.

---
I don't see her for a couple days, and then its the weekend. About 30 of my friends are meeting out at a bar, and so she calls me to ask if she can ride with me. She walks over to my place and we head down together. At the bar there's a pretty attractive girl there who is newly in our social circle who I know is jocking me hard and fairly aggressively/blatantly, but I'm not interested because she's pretty christian, and I have a rule of not getting involved with girls who are legit christians. Girl I showed up with definitely sees the christian girl trying to get my attention, flirt with me, grab my arm as she walks by, etc, which causes my girl to get into mate guarding stance and step up her physical interaction with me too. Since the failed kiss, I've been making sure I'm always 1-3 steps behind her in reciprocation, but in the bar I let her lean into me, kinda hang onto my arm, etc.

Anyway, most of the group moves on to another bar, leaving me and my girl, plus a buddy and his girl sitting on a couple couches. We sit down and she leans up on my chest/shoulder, and is squeezing my leg, etc. I caress her arm and I gently put my nose up against the side/back of her neck and slowly take a big smell of her hair. This drives her heart rate through the roof, which I can feel. We sit there for about 10 minutes doing more of this and she is getting hot and bothered before I whisper in her ear, "lets get out of here", which she agrees to. We go get in my car, and as I'm driving back to my place, she says, "you know I've been seeing someone, right?" I respond, "yep." She asks, "that doesn't bother you?" I say, "Nope." She sits in silence for a minute and says, "can you take me home instead of going back to your place? I need to call him and have a talk with him." I agree and swing by her place to drop her off, before heading back to the bars to meet up with the rest of the group we were with before.

---
A week goes by and we hang out once in a group setting with more of the same - flirting and cuddling/caressing, but no kissing. I have no problem waiting, so I guide things along slowly - no rush. I let her feel like most of the time she is the one pulling me along, but every now and then I mix it up and make her a little confused about that.

Now its the weekend again, and we hang out during the day on saturday, then she comes over to my place to cook dinner with me. I decide its time to start verbally addressing the elephant in the room, so I begin by telling her about some of my philosophies and how I see the world, etc. The conversation progresses to talking about why she wanted to stop dating me in the spring (because I was "too indifferent and I didn't seem to really care about her" - interesting). The conversation rambles around and she asks me about whether I was dating anyone over the summer/fall while she was gone. I list off the names of the girls I had hooked up with/dated during the time she was gone. She was very surprised by this part, and she either knew or knew of I think 6 of the 9 girls. Coincidentally I just stopped seeing the last of those girls earlier in the week, since I was bored of her, so when she asks if I'm seeing anyone else I tell her honestly that I just broke it off with the last girl, so I'm fully single.

I could tell that she was expecting me to give her one or two names, so hearing 9 is quite shocking to her. After dinner, we're sitting by the fire on the couch and over the course of the whole 2-hour conversation, I've subtly worked in all my terms and conditions, and she now has been able to piece it together to see my contract that I'm putting on the table. I didn't lay it out all at once, but all the pieces are there and its clear that our conversation has been about discussing terms of engagement while entertaining interesting tangents and generally not rushing anything. My offer to her has a lot of the standard things in it you can find in other examples on this forum, but the basic gist of it is:

• I am not attached and will not become attached and she just has to deal with what that means for her. (She very specifically addressed this - in her words, "its scary getting involved with someone who's not going to feel that attachment, because you don't know if they're going to stick around or not..." I think she has a good point. It means she has to stay on top of her game, treat me right, and not get complacent, otherwise I have no reason to stick around.)
• There is no chance I will ever marry her - I don't ever plan on getting married, and I don't believe in marriage, and I never want to hear about marriage.
• No expectations of dating for any specific length of time - if it doesn't feel good or right, then she can't be upset if I choose to end it even if its "only" been X number of weeks/months, etc.
• No expectations of spending a certain amount of time with me per week - I tell her I'm most likely going to be happy to see her at least once every week, but no guarantees of anything. I'm busy with the two businesses I'm running, my vibrant and large social circle, and lots of fun hobbies/sports, and she can't expect me to drop any/all of that stuff for her.
• No expectations that I will call/text her a certain amount or at all, and I may not want to have long phone/text conversations even if she initiates them, and she has to be ok with that.
• No cheesy holidays.
• No using the terms boyfriend or girlfriend.
• No manipulative tactics to try to get what she wants. If I feel like she is trying to manipulate me, I tell her how much of a turnoff that is and how I may lose all attraction for her by her doing that, even if her manipulations are not successful (true). I gave her a good number of examples of what I mean with this kind of thing, and I think I communicated this as effectively as I could have. She also knows what I can do in bed, so when I told her I would lose all attraction for her, I could visibly see the fear of loss come washing across her face.
• Yes to being totally honest if she asks me about what is happening in the moment/what I'm feeling about her (and vice versa).

And the final piece of the contract was something I wanted to leave open to discussing with her, which is what she wanted in terms of exclusivity. When we dated in the spring I really wanted non-exclusive dating so I could hook up with other girls, but after spending the summer dating 2-3 girls at once, I'm actually pretty tired of dating all these girls. I'm busy, and dating all these girls is pulling me away from other things I want to do, so right now I would actually be ok dating just one girl, and especially since I already know what this girl brings to the table and I know I like it, and I'm pretty sure she will not be dramatic, demanding, or annoying.

We dance around the subject a little bit, but end up addressing it eventually, and what I float out there is that I will keep my pants on with any other girls. If I want to take my pants off with another girl, I have to inform her first and give her the chance to decide if she wants to break it off with me or not, but there are no restrictions on hanging out with other girls, as long as the pants stay zipped. She, of course, enjoys the same rights and responsibilities. I'm perfectly happy with this arrangement, at this time at least. I have no illusions that this girl is "special" or an "x-factor" or "keeper" or anything like that, but she brings a lot of good qualities to the table, so I'm pretty content to date her. If, however, a better option comes along, I can do a little exploration into the new option and decide if its worth ditching this girl for the new one, and I'm not handcuffed from getting to know other people, as long as I keep my pants on. Its hypergamy, but we've pretty much exchanged the traditional roles.

After addressing this issue, we sit there for a minute not saying anything, and then we start making out, hard. She's really attacking me at this point. We make out for a bit, then I pick her up and carry her into my bedroom, but once we're on the bed she stops me and says, "I just feel like we covered a lot of stuff and I want to make sure I think about everything before I sleep with you." She's clearly conflicted - her body really really wants it, but her mind is holding her back, and the confusion is too much so she just goes home.

---
The next day she calls up my buddy who is close with her and they talk for quite a while. He of course then passes the pertinent info along to me. I guess the number of girls I dated over the summer, and the fact that I was dating 2-3 of them at once most of that time really shocked her, and she was not expecting that. The more she thinks about it the more it worries her that she won't be able to keep my attention and I'll drop her for some other girl.

Valid concern, I'd say - she better make sure she is interesting and nice and sexy and fun and engaging and all those other things otherwise I will lose interest. There ain't no free lunch, and if she wants to dine at my table, she's gotta bring her A game on a consistent basis.

---
A couple days pass and I don't hear anything from her. The fact that I haven't heard anything does make me start to think that maybe she's not down with my terms, but I'm patient and in no rush so I just give her space and wait. Four days after our contract talk, she texts me and asks me if I'm going to this concert that she knows for sure I'm going to. I tell her that I'll see her there. Once at the concert, she basically grabs me and wants to hold my hand, grabs my arm and puts it around her shoulders, and just generally 'stakes her claim' to me very blatantly for anyone else in the room to see. If I drift away to talk to someone else, within about 10 seconds she'll show up right next to me and kind of hug onto my arm or something like that.

When its time to leave, we go back to my place and release some sexual tension that had been building for quite some time. She orgasms almost instantly after I enter her, and a couple more times before I'm done. Clearly she had been wanting this from me for a while, and the tension was built up quite high for her.

That night/next morning and afterwards she never verbally addresses my terms, but its clear she's accepted. She took a flight, landed in another tree for a bit. While sitting in that other tree, she turns around and looks back at my branches, and decides they look awful nice so she flies back over to me. It took her quite a bit of circling (5 weeks worth) to finally come in for the landing, but now she's happily sitting on this oak tree's branch.

Until of course she isn't anymore. 8-)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:43 am 
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Ah yes, every now and then I see a post or thread and think 'Benchmark'.
Meraki wrote:
She orgasms almost instantly after I enter her, and a couple more times before I'm done. Clearly she had been wanting this from me for a while, and the tension was built up quite high for her.
Damn :shock:

All in the mind...all in the mind. This is so important to know.

Quote:
That night/next morning and afterwards she never verbally addresses my terms, but its clear she's accepted.
I'd like to know from the guys here is about this, whether it's necessary or important for 'her' to verbally address, acknowledge and accept the terms or not.

I suppose if she reneges you can just drop her and say I told you so.

Meraki :D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:47 am 
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Meraki wrote:
I could tell that she was expecting me to give her one or two names, so hearing 9 is quite shocking to her.
:lol:

Sockdolager for her, but not a deal-breaker. Gotta love it.
Bound to cause some cerebration inside her dunce cap.

(I have yet to read your 1st original thread properly... )

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:55 am 
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Hah, thanks Rolan and Jared. Yeah, the 9 girls thing at first was shocking for her and she didn't know how to process it, but now that she's had some time to sit with it, I think its actually something she's neutral about. On the one hand its negative because it means I clearly have lots of options so she'd better treat me right and keep herself up, but at the same time its positive because as long as she is still with me (and the only one with me), its also something she can be proud of - I have lots of options, but I chose her.

The original thread is interesting - I just re-read it before posting this. It went off on some significant tangents not really related to my original story, but still worth reading, and there are some nice posts in there, especially from Flow.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:01 am 
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Meraki wrote:
I think its actually something she's neutral about. On the one hand its negative because it means I clearly have lots of options so she'd better treat me right and keep herself up, but at the same time its positive because as long as she is still with me (and the only one with me), its also something she can be proud of - I have lots of options, but I chose her.
I don't think she is neutral about it :lol:

I believe they want us to have options, and not because we may choose her over many others as you state. I may even believe that on a deeper level they want us to act on these options, regardless of their protestations or what they may say, or believe themselves infact.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:08 am 
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Rolan wrote:
I don't think she is neutral about it :lol:
Haha - yeah, I meant is more in that its something she can choose to view both positively and negatively, so it balances out. But she's not neutral to it in the unaffected, don't care sense of the word. I think she definitely cares. I have no opinion about whether on some deeper unconscious level she wants me to act on other options or not. Could go either way on that one.

Oh, and Rolan, I'd say its not super important for her to verbally agree. If I had laid it out very explicitly like we were lawyers in mediation (by saying something like "here's the rules for being involved with me") then it would be more important for her to agree verbally. But since I more just wove the terms into a longer conversation, simply by virtue of the fact that she made the call to hook up, she accepted my terms. I never once did anything to pressure her or manipulate her into hooking up with me, so her decision to come back to my place after the concert was 100% of her own volition (I didn't even ask her back to my place - she suggested we go there), and that means that she knows my terms and has accepted them.

And if she starts breaking any of the terms of the contract, all I have to do is tell her something like: "Look, we talked about this already - here's how I operate, and it's just part of who I am, so if you want to keep dealing with me, you need to understand that." If she apologizes and drops it, then great. If she responds to that with argument or bitchiness, then I can just tell her I won't see her until she acts right, and if that means we're done, then thats fine with me - its her choice.

But of course, anyone else who wants to weigh in is welcome.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:31 am 
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This is textbook.
Treasure chest it. nao.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Yes, very textbook indeed.

Only thing I could think while reading this was "Very smooth, very natural"

I love how girls are choosers, yet guys can gain all the power when they just acknowledge that fact and accept it, entirely.

I think what many can take away from this is the absence of effort on your part.

The only effort by you was your observation and analysis of the REALITY of her actions, but even then it seems like it was effortless - running in the background.

Like you said, at the end of the day you got plenty of activities to direct your time and effort towards (work, hobbies, friends, etc.)

You're already doing you and she is just coming a long for the ride.

Good shit Meraki, it was a great read.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:41 am 
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Came back to this thread for a certain vocab word (thanks Jared - you always throw in interesting/uncommon words), but also wanted to say thanks Dali and JDogg, I appreciate what you wrote. 8-)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:47 am 
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This thread was the cherry on top of a already tasty sundae (prior thread). Thank you for sharing Meraki.

It's funny for me how I was naturally drawn to this thread. It meshed very well for me with my recent post, as I learned a lot more about contracts and filled in some blanks. I see how I need to explore more of what I actually want, and even beyond that it I saw it's time for some growing up.
Rolan wrote:
Meraki wrote:
I think its actually something she's neutral about. On the one hand its negative because it means I clearly have lots of options so she'd better treat me right and keep herself up, but at the same time its positive because as long as she is still with me (and the only one with me), its also something she can be proud of - I have lots of options, but I chose her.
I don't think she is neutral about it :lol:

I believe they want us to have options, and not because we may choose her over many others as you state. I may even believe that on a deeper level they want us to act on these options, regardless of their protestations or what they may say, or believe themselves infact.
I agree, to a certain extent. Who doesn't want the "best" fish in the lake? To where I am not sure is: if they want us to act on those options. Interesting to think about.


Meraki wrote:
Came back to this thread for a certain vocab word (thanks Jared - you always throw in interesting/uncommon words)
It's not uncommon for me to do a Google search of a word Jared throws out. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:38 pm 
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Quote:
"I am an oak tree, she is a bird who was happily sitting on my branch, but now she’s gotten all chirpy and agitated and took off for a flight. If she comes back and lands on my branch again - fine with me. If she keeps flying to another tree somewhere else - also fine with me. That will free me up to let another bird (or birds) come sit on my branch."

"Sometimes the bird gets all antsy just needs to take a little flight to realize that she actually liked the branch she was sitting on. Sometimes she takes her flight and winds up on another branch that might be better/worse/the same."

"The oak tree doesn't try to reach out and grab a bird that is flying by. The oak tree has branches that are nice to perch on. What this forum is about is teaching oak trees to not try to use their branches like arms, to not try to reach out and grab birds that are flying by. Imagine such a silly thing - an oak tree trying with all its might to move its branches in order to grab a bird. The oak tree is only deluding itself if it thinks that is a good idea. Oak branches aren't built to do that kind of thing.

No, instead this forum teaches you to make your branches better to perch on, and if they are better to perch on, birds will see that, and they will come perch."
I love this!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:48 am 
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Fascinating conversations, both threads, thanks for sharing
people. I will read again, im Namen der Wissenschaft.

If you can explain things easily and concisely in a way that
others understand it, you know it.

TheDude wrote:
Meraki wrote:
Came back to this thread for a certain vocab word (thanks Jared - you always throw in interesting/uncommon words)
It's not uncommon for me to do a Google search of a word Jared throws out. :)
Shakespeare had 17,000 - 30,000 words in his active vocabulary,
Goethe had 50,000 - 90,000. He was the ultimate polymath
and genius. (trivia)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:59 pm 
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Jared wrote:
im Namen der Wissenschaft
Hah. I thought this was going to be something about "witchcraft" until Google translate told me it means "in the name of science". :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:13 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Jared wrote:
im Namen der Wissenschaft
Hah. I thought this was going to be something about "witchcraft" until Google translate told me it means "in the name of science". :lol:
Fun fact of the day, look up science in a dictionary:
Quote:
sci·ence [sahy-uhns]
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.

Option 2 - oxford english dict:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment: the world of science and technology
Synonyms
1.1a particular area of science: veterinary science [count noun]: the agricultural sciences
1.2a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject: the science of criminology
1.3 • archaic knowledge of any kind: his rare science and his practical skill
Hmm, I wonder how that applies here.

The origin is even more curious: Middle English (denoting knowledge): from Old French, from Latin scientia, from scire 'know'.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:31 pm 
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Pimposophy & science

Thanks Peregrinus, this is good stuff. ⇑
Deepening meanings.

(@ Meraki I was listening to a Wittgenstein documentary
in ´Deutsch´)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:48 am 
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This, for me, is a near perfect analogy Meraki.

An Oak tree has a solid core and mighty branches. The branches remain open for birds to come and perch. The Oak tree doesn't change or shift when the bird comes to rest on it's branches. It remains an oak tree whether it has birds on it's branches or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:43 am 
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Leo wrote:
An Oak tree has a solid core and mighty branches. The branches remain open for birds to come and perch. The Oak tree doesn't change or shift when the bird comes to rest on it's branches. It remains an oak tree whether it has birds on it's branches or not.
Haha, yep. The oak doesn't change or shift. Although sometimes a big windstorm comes up and the oak tree shakes and sways and knocks the bird off its perch onto its butt on the ground... :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:51 pm 
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Jared wrote:
im Namen der Wissenschaft.
That´s the second time I caught you throwing in german quite randomly.
The other time was Katzenjammer.. haven´t heard it in ages, its not a common expression at all. :lol:
You just want to come across as extra smart, huh? :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Merrick wrote:
Jared wrote:
im Namen der Wissenschaft.
That´s the second time I caught you throwing in german quite randomly.
The other time was Katzenjammer.. haven´t heard it in ages, its not a common expression at all. :lol:
You just want to come across as extra smart, huh? :roll:
Yes... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:12 am 
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Seems to work out for you, keep up your german lessons then :)
Katzenjammer made my day back then :D

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