Natural Freedom

Forum for the natural awakening and self-realization of men
It is currently Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:02 am

All times are UTC+01:00




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 »
Author Message
 Post subject: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 3140
Location: Canada
The Inertia of Enlightenment

Buddhism, and popular Western proponents of its ideals such as Eckhart Tolle, take the fragmentation of the Self to its end. Enlightenment, or “Nirvana,” the Pali term, means “blowing out” – i.e., the extinguishing of one’s individual, divine spark. Through a process of relinquishing all of its parts, one experiences the Self as nonexistent, and this is claimed to be the highest state to which one can attain.

Buddha observed that everything in the physical world is subject to impermanence and entropy, and artificially imposed this entropy on the Self in the attempt to dissolve it, therefore “ending suffering.” Through a process of relinquishing everything – thought, will, desire, love – all is stripped away to the point that there ceases to be any awareness of one’s Self as an autonomous, sovereign individual personality.

Achieving enlightenment is a bit like dismantling your car, throwing all its parts aside, in the search for the “True Car” within. Eventually you’ll find that there is no car, but that doesn’t mean the car has ceased to exist. It’s simply in pieces, scattered all over the general vicinity.

So it is with enlightenment. One removes everything that can be removed, leaving the physical body and conscious mind. You’ve got peace – but it’s the peace of death; entropy that has reached zero-point. You’ve got detachment – the literal detachment of all one’s parts from their centralized location in the 3D world. Scattered around your physical body at various points on the nonphysical spectrum are all your parts, who may care a bit more about what’s happening, but can’t do a damn thing about it. Desire-based aspects that either can’t fulfill themselves, or can do nothing but. Mobility with no direction. A navigator that can’t go anywhere. An interpreter and assigner of value that exists in a state of sensory deprivation. Passion without an object. And, more than likely, a Higher Self going “well, crap… lost another one to that whole ‘enlightenment’ fad.” One does indeed rid themselves of the part that is capable of suffering (and joy!) but that part simply continues to suffer, cut off from a mind that no longer has the capacity to notice or care.

I’m a bit more wary of Buddhism and all its derivatives than the Abrahamic religions, for a few reasons. The cultivation of siddhis, i.e. nonphysical sensing and metaphysical abilities, is strongly discouraged and viewed as a distraction on the path to enlightenment. Anything that might be seen or heard in meditation is dismissed as illusory and inconsequential. Read: all the skills and perceptive abilities you need to notice that all your ejected parts continue to exist just beyond your awareness, are ignored until the parts of you that make those perceptions possible are, themselves, relinquished.


You can see the whole article here http://beyond-within.com/blog/metaphysi ... er-part-3/

_________________
A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:13 pm
Posts: 336
By definition in that case definition would be nuetral. In fact the most nuetral way possible to be, peaceful, but boring entirely.

_________________
The facebook page for modern libertines now with accessibility!


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:32 pm
Posts: 1049
Location: The Real World

:ugeek: I guess this is where perception comes in once again, I guess if there are things you are trying to achieve in life or just can't let go of then yes enlightenment is bad......

But I guess that's how I see it yeah sure I'm pretty sure none of us on this planet doesn't want to stop existing but its the cycle of life and also the beauty part of it ......... read this article to really understand what I'm saying better:

http://www.urbanmonk.net/897/beauty-lie ... ermanence/


But again it all depends on your state of mind when you read this I personally think its wonderful to have such peace although it would mean I'm either dead or as The Modern Libertine put it living a boring life but that's just me I've always been like that I don't like putting in effort in a lot of things which is why I made up my mind to join the military I've decided I need to get some passion going in my life and learn to develop into a great leader so I can finally feel alive anyway not to go into a tangent I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say

_________________
~There's weakness in the hearts of all humans are you afraid to acknowledge yours... ~
Mr. Todo


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:25 am
Posts: 49
What is bad about having no thoughts, a baby is like englightened, do you think adults are "better"? hehe
I see it as being more Loving towards life, for a better world.
Not as a goal to reach Buddha.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 3140
Location: Canada
Buddism rejects the ego, esp in western versions (Eckhart Tolle). It attacks and tells you to reject parts of yourself the part on pain bodies is esp dangerous. I like parts of the main message live in the present moment, let your attachments go etc. But enlightenment isn't true freedom because you still have to follow a set of someone elses rules. And your supposed to ignore the development of extra abilities you obtain such as clairsentience and clairvoyance because they're "distractions" from enlightenment. The "acceptence of what is" is also way to passive for me. It's disempowering to be told to cut of the parts of yourself that you need, if you follow someone else's rules you are playing with a half deck of cards. Like Terrence Mckenna said " we must all understand what is happening to us, and no one knows. The first step is transend and mistrust ideology. No one is smarter than you are. What do you think?" When you achieve enlightenment that isn't the end of suffering the pieces of yourself continue to suffer cut off from the whole.

P.S I'm in no way attacking anyone's beliefs, and i hope it doesn't come off that way.

_________________
A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:45 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm
Posts: 3027
Location: UK
Before anyone says Enlightenment is bad surely they should appreciate what enlightenment is.

They also need to consider if those people who they are taking as a reference have it or just think they have it.

There is a lot of bullshit around relating to enlightenment. How to achieve it and what it is.

--

It is one of those things which is hard to explain to someone who has not achieved it, from the other side of the fence. The frames of reference are just to different.

--

There is a Zen saying, "Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water."
What’s the difference?

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 3140
Location: Canada
How does it relate to perception abilities you gain along the way? Do u have to give those up too?

_________________
A truly powerful Man jealously guards his most precious resources; his independence and his ability to maneuver. True power isn’t controlling others, but the degree to which you control the course of your own life and your own choices. -Rational Male


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:40 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 am
Posts: 3614
Location: The unknown
Enlightenment is not bad and the guy who wrote that has not reached that state.
He wrote an artical based on what he 'thinks' Enlightenment is......

_________________
"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"
Sometimes it's a little better to travel than to arrive” \ Robert M. Pirsig


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:32 pm
Posts: 1049
Location: The Real World
And this is why I agree with etienne enlightenment can't be reached unless you kill yourself too many perspectives to consider about this subject but some how I agreed with this the most I'm not saying this is correct but this resonates to me and makes the most sense

_________________
~There's weakness in the hearts of all humans are you afraid to acknowledge yours... ~
Mr. Todo


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:12 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 am
Posts: 3614
Location: The unknown
Way of a Natural wrote:
And this is why I agree with etienne enlightenment can't be reached unless you kill yourself too many perspectives to consider about this subject but some how I agreed with this the most I'm not saying this is correct but this resonates to me and makes the most sense
you think Etienne knows about enlightenment?

his ego stinks just like the BS he is trying to sell......

_________________
"a sniper is the worst romancer, he never makes the first move"
Sometimes it's a little better to travel than to arrive” \ Robert M. Pirsig


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:32 pm
Posts: 1049
Location: The Real World
Sniper wrote:
Way of a Natural wrote:
And this is why I agree with etienne enlightenment can't be reached unless you kill yourself too many perspectives to consider about this subject but some how I agreed with this the most I'm not saying this is correct but this resonates to me and makes the most sense
you think Etienne knows about enlightenment?

his ego stinks just like the BS he is trying to sell......

I don't think he knows jack squat about enlightenment I just agreed to that part of his statement that's it nothing more :lol:

_________________
~There's weakness in the hearts of all humans are you afraid to acknowledge yours... ~
Mr. Todo


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:11 pm
Posts: 83
Morpheus wrote:
How does it relate to perception abilities you gain along the way? Do u have to give those up too?
I don't think one needs to give up those "special powers" to become enlightened. Even after being enlightened, there's no need to not use those "special powers" either. But if you get stuck with your "special powers"... no enlightenment for you, just as if you get stuck with any other aspect of you. No matter what game you keep playing over and over again, if you do, you're playing small.

_________________
Let the angel that you are embrace with love and tame the demon that you are, and let the demon that you are kick your angel's ass, so he awakens.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:11 am
Posts: 778
Thank you 'Grinus for saying that.

If you think Zen Buddhism tells you to reject parts of yourself, or that the "pain body" (that's purely a word from Tolle) or ego or anything is BAD then you are reading very superficial parts of it and interpreting it very simplistically. It is actually the exact opposite of rejecting parts of yourself -- or getting rid of parts of yourself. That is projection and what we do with things we don't like. It is actually about integration and acceptance of ALL aspects of yourself so completely that you can see them for what they truly are -- and, almost all thoughts are truly nothing more than thoughts, and 99.9% of "yourself" are just thoughts about thoughts about an experience. A very simple definition of enlightenment is seeing things exactly as they are. You can't take an intellectual stance about - it has nothing to do with good or bad, or deciding that thoughts are bad or that you don't exist - it is about practice and observation of what is actually true when you go beyond the realm of thought into direct experience.

Buddha - it's because I have attained that I can say I have not attained.

Most Zen teaching is paradoxical like this because the true reality of anything is beyond dualistic concepts -- beyond 'good' or 'bad' all of which are judgments.

If you are actively trying to kill your ego, actively trying to disown parts of yourself, or judge whatever is arising within you as bad - you are not even remotely close to following what the Buddha taught. Also, it's never even really taught that thinking stops or all sense of personality stops, or preferences stop -- it is only that you don't identify with it or attach to it. Buddha never said that "desire is the cause of suffering" it is attachment to desire is the cause of suffering. Desire is as natural as breath and not a problem inherently.

What people call "enlightenment" is not even the ultimate achievement in Buddhism - it's actually one of the early steps.

Not only is it NOT about "cutting off parts of yourself" -- it goes several levels beyond the opposite of that to seeing through the illusion of separation and seeing that all of the depth of human suffering is also arising in experience and taking it on (again, this is way beyond a simplistic 'it's my fault' type of thing.) The Bodhisattva is considered one of the highest levels and that is taking a vow to free all living beings from suffering.

You can't become enlightened anyway - the identify you call "you" is burned away in the process along with all the suffering attached to it. The word nirvana means extinction. This does not mean you cease to exist, rather your identify does, you still exist as you always have and experience directly without the filters you currently view and judge everything through. Yet, at the same time you have your own individual perception of consciousness but do not see it as separate, like a drop of water in the ocean no longer thinking it is NOT the ocean. Universal consciousness would require an individual consciousness in order to experience itself. You are actually both things.

Most Zen teaching is always about not getting stuck - there is not so much a "judgement" against the types of phenomenon that develop and seeming powers that can happen, it is about not getting attached to it and stuck there thinking these things are the barometer to which you measure your progress. If you think having powers or doing cool shit = how much you are doing it right, then you are still trapped in the wheel of having your internal experience be based on *external* experiences.

There is a whole non-dualist crowd that simply says "this is all a dream so nothing exists" and just sit around and fuck off. That is NOT Zen Buddhism -- Zen teachers are the ones who hit those guys with a stick. Is that pain a dream, an illusion? No, it's about the direct experience of that moment. When the stick hits you for a split second you are fully in the now - no bullshit concepts about dream or illusion or reality or pain bodies.

That is Zen - direct experience.

Sorry to go off haha but to write off such a deep and beautiful teaching-- i mean it's all good if you think those teachings are bullshit, but don't say the teachings are something completely different from what they are (or even the opposite) and then slam it for that reason.

_________________
http://www.innerreconciliation.com


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:11 am
Posts: 778
Now of course there are tons of different schools of Zen and such and they have their own differences.. but - whatever :lol:

A real barebones example of how a superficial delivery of this stuff can easily be misinterpreted:

Your desire to bang a hot woman is bad - it will make you suffer, sit in a cave until you don't feel it anymore

Real teaching: A desire arose. Feel it completely. Feel it so completely and stay so present with it that you start to see it for what it really is. See all the concepts and mind stories that are also wrapped around the idea of banging a hot woman.. see how much of it is all just thought and not really there. THAT is what is making you suffer. The only thing you are *actually experiencing* is some energy in your body. Stay with it - see that past the thinking about it, everything you think you will 'get' from this is already inside of you, here, now, fully complete, actually the energy even feels good when you don't put meaning on to it now - it's only a thought that it's bad or can only be satisfied by winning her etc. All of it except the feeling of energy was thinking.

You drop all the BS around it and you are free. Then the desire might arise again, because that's what they do. A moment later, it might not be (instead of going into sex fantasies in your head and living in the future) - you are free to act on it or free to not act on it, but act on what is actually there and see it for what it actually is.

Most of you guys have done this type of work and had experiences like this already. Now you don't have to actively "try to not care" about certain things- you've seen through it, you know what it is - you know what games are being played (often by your own mind). So you've been doing a lot of Zen practice anyway 8-)

_________________
http://www.innerreconciliation.com


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:32 pm
Posts: 1049
Location: The Real World
Flow83 wrote:
What people call "enlightenment" is not even the ultimate achievement in Buddhism - it's actually one of the early steps.
Really :!: :o :shock: :( :arrow: :| :geek:

Talk about learning something new everyday. I had no idea, how did you come across such information Flow?

_________________
~There's weakness in the hearts of all humans are you afraid to acknowledge yours... ~
Mr. Todo


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:54 pm
Posts: 444
Thank you for clearing that up, Flow (and saving me the trouble :lol: ) Seriously, you were best suited for this, anyway.

For example, the original author of the article completely misunderstood the warning about "siddhis" (development of powers). First of all, it is not a warning; they are simply pointing out that the way to the next siddhi is by relinquishing (rather than pretending it is unimportant, mind you!) attachment to the one you have now. (Edit: as well as attachment to the next one). So that, for example, in order to become the one whose faith can move mountains, you have to first become the one who doesn't give a shit about where the mountain is :lol: . And to recognise both the cosmic irony (and therefore, HUMOUR, which although present in this type of journey, is not usually recognised by those who are on the outside looking in) of this state of affairs, as well as the fact that these siddhis cannot really be misused (since, in order to use them for "ill", one would need to re-identify with ego anyway, which negates the power - a beautiful failsafe, in my opinion).

I am really liking Baba Ram Dass' book "Remember, Be Here Now" (http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopi ... =22&t=2884) because of the clarity he brings to issues such as these. In addition to the above, he also clarifies that, when using "The Witness" (observing yourself, your actions, emotions, thoughts, etc. which is the same thing that Eckhart Tolle talks about) to observe your everyday living, well yes, life WILL lose its "zing" for a while, and will become a deadened, dispassionate affair. He even admits that this will be a very difficult part of our path (sound familiar, anyone? hint: post-red pill.....) But he goes on to say that THIS IS ONLY A STAGE. The author of the original article, by omitting this rather crucial piece of info (whether due to an agenda or by simply not having enough experience with it, doesn't make a difference to the end result) did a disservice not only to this way of living, but also to the article itself.
peregrinus wrote:
Before anyone says Enlightenment is bad surely they should appreciate what enlightenment is.
Thank you. The author clearly is criticising what they do not, themselves, understand. In essence, they are criticising THEIR MISUNDERSTANDING OF IT.

(Waitaminit - that's what we all do, anyway..... :lol: :lol: To one degree or another, at least.)

Then again, this result is not entirely unexpected when one uses cold hard logic to critique something that is BEYOND thought. Does anyone else see the cosmic example of projection here? (I know, I get attached to whatever I happen to be studying at the time!!!). What I mean is, the COLDNESS of the logic used here to analyse Buddhism has resulted in the PERCEPTION of coldness in it. And therefore, as ever, all that happened here was simply that consciousness was folded back in on itself. :o :lol: :geek:

_________________
"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:11 am
Posts: 778
Nice man.

Are you referencing the quote (paraphrase): To be enlightened is to have the power to move mountains but also you realize the mountain is exactly where it is supposed to be. Says it all.

Siddhis Are also not true means to ending suffering. It's only if you're still trapped in the idea of suffering or not depending on external conditions.

They are also not a guarantee to happen and to judge based on having them or not is the same wheel as thinking you need to get pussy to be happy.

_________________
http://www.innerreconciliation.com


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:54 pm
Posts: 444
Flow83 wrote:
Are you referencing the quote (paraphrase): To be enlightened is to have the power to move mountains but also you realize the mountain is exactly where it is supposed to be.
Exactly.
Flow83 wrote:
and to judge based on having them or not is the same wheel as thinking you need to get pussy to be happy.
Very true.

_________________
"I will not grow in the light, until I pass through the darkest caverns of my heart..."

"Temet Nosce"


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:50 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:18 am
Posts: 1619
Now that you bring this topic.

The book that helped me clearing the bullshit around the topic of enlightenment was, and still is, Spiritual Enlightenment The Damnedest thing by Jed McKenna. This guy is a zero bullshit mofo around the topic of Zen and Spiritual Enlightenment, and he explains it so clearly.

A recomended book.

Here some amazon reviews:
Quote:

_________________
GMST
:ugeek:


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Enlightenment is Bad
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:11 am
Posts: 778
Dali wrote:
Now that you bring this topic.

The book that helped me clearing the bullshit around the topic of enlightenment was, and still is, Spiritual Enlightenment The Damnedest thing by Jed McKenna. This guy is a zero bullshit mofo around the topic of Zen and Spiritual Enlightenment, and he explains it so clearly.

A recomended book.

Here some amazon reviews:
Quote:
Jed McKenna - right on

_________________
http://www.innerreconciliation.com


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 »

All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: 

cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited