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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:10 am 
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Location: The side of a mountain somewhere...
Ok, so a few months back I got "The Way Of The Superior Man" by David Deida, and I've ready it twice and thought it was great. Then a few weeks ago I got "The Manipulated Man" by Esther Villar and read that straight through right away, and also thought it was very good.

Both books opened my eyes and were very valuable to me, particularly in gaining a better understanding of my parent's relationship. Deida's book is definitely more positive and inspiring and Villar's book is more negative and cynical.

Here's my question - does anyone else who has read both of them feel like its hard to reconcile the two of them? Like they contradict eachother?

Specifically, I see a couple of their main arguments as contradictory:

1) Deida says that masculine and feminine polarity is essential in any romantic relationship. He defines masculine as concerned primarily with purpose (on a mission, goal oriented, logical) and he defines feminine as primarily concerned with flow of good emotions in the moment (often chaotic, unfocused, energetic, illogical). Deida says its correct to encourage this polarity in your romantic relationships - to actively develop your masculine and "let your woman relax into her feminine".

2) Villar, on the other hand, says that women manipulate men (through many different methods) into becoming their workhorses. She argues that men are programmed (by the matrix) into becoming responsible, hardworking providers that are easy for women to take advantage of. The better a man can provide and the more easily a man can have the wool pulled over his eyes, then the more likely he will be to get locked up.

Taken individually I can't argue with either one of those arguments, but when you put them together and compare, it seems to me that Deida's "let your woman relax into her feminine" opens the door to let a manipulative woman (which are almost all women) get her foot in. It almost seems to me that "being feminine" is an excuse for being irresponsible/unfocused/not wanting to do her fair share.

Has anyone else noticed this apparent disagreement between the two books? What did you think about it? Can you push into your masculine and "let your woman relax into her feminine" without running the risk of letting yourself get a raw deal?

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:39 pm 
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It's a tough balance...but an essential one. That's where being 'pimp tight' makes the difference. You be the masculine energy she needs you to be...that will bring forth her feminine and put her in her natural state...but because you are aware, you will be able to catch and correct any attempts to be manipulated. Society's rules set you up for this...but since we don't play by society's guidelines therein lies our advantage. ;)

In other words, always treat them accordingly...no matter what. :ugeek:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Quote:
Society's rules set you up for this...but since we don't play by society's guidelines therein lies our advantage
Beautiful line.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Those books outline the rules and guidelines that govern The Matrix...this forum shows you how to bend those rules and circumvent those guidelines. 8-)

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING. :ugeek:

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Meraki wrote:
Taken individually I can't argue with either one of those arguments, but when you put them together and compare, it seems to me that Deida's "let your woman relax into her feminine" opens the door to let a manipulative woman (which are almost all women) get her foot in. It almost seems to me that "being feminine" is an excuse for being irresponsible/unfocused/not wanting to do her fair share.

Has anyone else noticed this apparent disagreement between the two books? What did you think about it? Can you push into your masculine and "let your woman relax into her feminine" without running the risk of letting yourself get a raw deal?
This where YOUR boundaries as a man come into play.

You let her run free in a field.. That field has boundaries, all fields do, sooner or later.

The boundaries define what she can and cannot get away with.

If she manipulates you, it is because you let her.
If you let her, she will manipulate the fuck out of you, until she hits a boundary.

Esther's take on it is when men have allowed society to erode their boundaries. Which is the current state of a lot of societies around the world. Sad but true.. She is commenting on the way things are, not how they could be. [As Kidd says]

If you put them back in place, the woman can run free with her feminine, while respecting your boundaries, which she has to do because you enforce them.

Both books are missing parts of the puzzle, as are all books.. Seeing the hole allows you to see the questions you seek.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:10 pm 
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peregrinus wrote:
She is commenting on the way things are, not how they could be. [As Kidd says]

peregrinus wrote:
Both books are missing parts of the puzzle, as are all books.. Seeing the hole allows you to see the questions you seek.
Quoted for emphasis.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:07 am 
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Kidd and G - thanks very much. Your responses were both very insightful.
peregrinus wrote:
You let her run free in a field.. That field has boundaries, all fields do, sooner or later.

The boundaries define what she can and cannot get away with.
This ^^ in particular was a very useful image.

Essentially what I see now is that the insights from the two books ARE in disagreement, but that they're not meant to be applied in the same realm. So, you can follow Deida by being masculine and letting your woman relax into her feminine within the bounds of what you consider fair/just/right. Then, when she hits that fence around the field, you have channel some Villar to let her know that you're not the average symp and you're not going to let her get away with the kind of stuff most men allow.

Nice.

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:18 am 
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Love these short and simple threads!

The Kidd!! wrote: *
Society's rules set you up for this...but since we don't play by society's guidelines therein lies our advantage. ;)

In other words, always treat them accordingly...no matter what. :ugeek:
This is a really nice way to think about it.


peregrinus wrote: *
This where YOUR boundaries as a man come into play.

You let her run free in a field.. That field has boundaries, all fields do, sooner or later.

The boundaries define what she can and cannot get away with.

If she manipulates you, it is because you let her.
If you let her, she will manipulate the fuck out of you, until she hits a boundary.

Esther's take on it is when men have allowed society to erode their boundaries. Which is the current state of a lot of societies around the world. Sad but true.. She is commenting on the way things are, not how they could be. [As Kidd says]

If you put them back in place, the woman can run free with her feminine, while respecting your boundaries, which she has to do because you enforce them.

Both books are missing parts of the puzzle, as are all books.. Seeing the hole allows you to see the questions you seek.
I want to quote this because I had a hard time defining my own boundaries when I was younger. I wanted other peoples approval so much that a lot of my boundaries were tied to what others thought of me. And I didn't even really realize that was the case until way down the road.

This led to a lot of projecting and not being authentic because I was holding up boundaries that weren't important to me.

My boundaries should be there because they're important to me and not because they might help me attract more X or Y. I didn't get that when I was younger.

And I want to end with what this reminded me of, "it's not what you say, it's how you say it".


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