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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:19 pm 
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Intro:

I'll do my best to create a valuable thread on :
- on what level ACT and NF compare to each other, likeness and differences
- where ACT can help NF readers, and vice versa.

I'll start with introducing ACT, as hopefully you are all familiar with NF already.
Please note that this thread is triggered by the great one from Hineini, link here

Part 1: ACT's 101.

I'll just share two images showing the 6 skills and how they interact (please read Hineini's thread above for complementary info, as I won't repeat what has been said there)
[ img ]
[ img ]
Hineini wrote: *
The 6 processes support and lead to one another; their result is a greater ability to respond flexibly to life in line with what you care about.
That's all for the ACT presentation, again, as Hineini did a great job here.

Part 2: The similarities between ACT and NF, the four mindfulness and acceptance processes.

ACT has something that NF clearly lacks by being a forum : it's organized and to the point.
So, it is a great addition to NF on the four mindfulness processes / first pivots (as per A Liberated Mind), for people that want an organized way, with multiple techniques / exercices.

Here are the four pivots, and some threads in NF (with keywords, if you want to search more threads on the subjects. THEY ARE INTERTWINED, apologies :lol:) :

- First pivot : Defusion - Putting the mind on a Leash
NF's vocab: "Let it go", "Tapping to your subconscious", "Indifference"

- Second Pivot : Self - The Art of Perspective-Taking
NF's vocab: "Aloneness" / "Being yourself" / "Being your best friend" / "Contentment", "Tapping to your subconscious", "Space", "Observation", "Indifference"

- Third Pivot : Acceptance - Learning from Pain
NF's vocab: "Let it go", "Tapping to your subconscious", "Indifference"

- Fourth Pivot : Presence - Living in the Now
NF's vocab: "Space", "Observation", "Moments", "Tapping to your subconscious"


NF's threads organized (kind of):
"Let it go"
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 049#p37049

"Tapping to your subconscious"
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 6911#p6911
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 7998#p7998
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 643#p48643
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 364#p14364

"Indifference"
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 944#p11944
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 3611#p3611
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 300#p13300

Random Perspective taking threads:
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 027#p16027
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 438#p13438

"Aloneness" / "Being yourself" / "Being your best friend" / "Contentment"
Master thread : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 317#p28317
https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 872#p45872
https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 289#p34289
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... p=871#p871

"Space"
Master thread : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 386#p27386

"Observation"
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 8429#p8429

"Moments"
Master thread : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 727#p23727
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 3310#p3310

I'll stop there. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I MISSED IMPORTANT NF KEYWORDS
Many of those threads come directly from
Grinus - Moments and other things : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2529
GB's recommendations P1 : YOU : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2512

If you want more info on the ACT exercices, I invite you to read ACT Made Simple, and specifically the "Smorgasboard(s)", a table with many exercices for each process. Or look at the ACT Toolkit(s).

Part 3: Putting ACT back in its place, ie, ACT differences with NF. VALUES.

To put things in perspective on where ACT stands compared to NF in my opinion, I'll start with two points :

- ACT was created as a psychological therapy, so, to help people with depression, or advised to see a psychiatrist to help with their current issues.
- NF was created (in my opinion) as a bait to lure boys that want to get pu**y / f*ck women / be an alpha male / ... to better themselves, to "BECOME MEN" instead.

Let's see how it compares for the last two Pivots :

- Fifth Pivot : Values - Caring by Choice

In ACT, there are 12 categories of Values (from VALUED LIVING QUESTIONNAIRE):

1. Family (other than marriage or parenting)
2. Marriage/couples/intimate relations
3. Parenting
4. Friends/social life
5. Work
6. Education/training
8. Spirituality
9. Citizenship/community life
10. Physical self-care (diet, exercise, sleep)
11. Environmental issues
12. Art, creative expression, aesthetics

In ACT, you are supposed to rate them from 1 to 10 on how valuable it is for you.

As I see it, ACT is NOT interested in all these "matrixes" and getting some "real World knowledge" unlike NF. You are SUPPOSED to KNOW what these categories hold (as they don't dive deeper on each of those).
See this post :
GoldenBoy wrote: *
If the first thing is to embrace your demons, and to be your own best friend, the next one is to accept reality exactly as it is
That is my main pet peeve (and not only mine) with ACT. They don't care much on the WHY we are sad, WHY we want what we want, WHY we value what we value, ...

Said differently : "ACT teaches you how to deal with things as they are.. rather than look at the causes, the root of the problem."

What's the HUGE difference? Getting the knowledge of "reality" WILL impact what you will THEN value, THEN commit to change.
This goes with ACT's stance on values not needing to be justified, and the concept of workability / what's best for me.
As Hineini said:
Hineini wrote: *
In order to make a selection however, you need to be selecting for something.
I WANT TO BE SURE THAT WHAT I'M SELECTING / WHAT I VALUE IS WHAT'S BEST. AND IT NEEDS KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION (not shouting at you btw :mrgreen:)
Also, knowledge gives you the power / will to change what needs to be changed.

Thus transitioning to :
- Sixth Pivot - Committing to Change
On that regard, ACT is similar to NF too on how to take action, but I figured it would still need to be talked at the end.

NF's vocab for value and taking action :
Value master thread : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 729#p23729

"worth" / "principles" / "Being your best friend"
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 087#p48087
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 587#p18587
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 560#p13560

"want / need" (many threads on women's, so careful with the search :lol:)
https://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtop ... 562#p43562

Conclusion :
ACT is VERY interesting for NF members in how to tackle internal struggles, that may appear while reading NF. :lol:
NF is VERY interesting for ACT clients / readers / lurkers in getting the knowledge to make informed decisions and re-defining values.

It was very beneficial to me to read about ACT:
- brought back many things, talked about here, to mind.
- helped to clarify a lot of things that I had found somehow confusing here.
- very much liked the clearness of the interactions on the six processes, how they depend on / hold onto each other.

Thanks again very much Hineini for bringing ACT to this forum.

I'm very curious to hear all of your comments.

The End

_________________
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:50 am 
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NF is Natural Freedom - this forum

ACT is Acceptance and commitment therapy

from : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptanc ... nt_therapy
Quote:
Acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT, typically pronounced as the word "act") is a form of psychotherapy and a branch of clinical behavior analysis.[1] It is an empirically based psychological intervention that uses acceptance and mindfulness strategies mixed in different ways[2] with commitment and behavior-change strategies, to increase psychological flexibility. The approach was originally called comprehensive distancing.[3] Steven C. Hayes developed acceptance and commitment therapy in 1982 in order to create a mixed approach which integrates both covert conditioning and behavior therapy.[4] There are a variety of protocols for ACT, depending on the target behavior or setting. For example, in behavioral health areas a brief version of ACT is called focused acceptance and commitment therapy (FACT).[5]

The objective of ACT is not elimination of difficult feelings; rather, it is to be present with what life brings us and to "move toward valued behavior".[6] Acceptance and commitment therapy invites people to open up to unpleasant feelings, and learn not to overreact to them, and not avoid situations where they are invoked. Its therapeutic effect is a positive spiral where feeling better (not in the sense of having "better" feelings, but in the sense of being better at feeling) leads to a better understanding of the truth.[7] In ACT, 'truth' is measured through the concept of 'workability', or what works to take another step toward what matters (e.g. values, meaning).
Quote:
While Western psychology has typically operated under the "healthy normality" assumption which states that by their nature, humans are psychologically healthy, ACT assumes, rather, that psychological processes of a normal human mind are often destructive.[9] The core conception of ACT is that psychological suffering is usually caused by experiential avoidance, cognitive entanglement, and resulting psychological rigidity that leads to a failure to take needed behavioral steps in accord with core values.

https://stevenchayes.com/about/
https://stevenchayes.com/books/

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:42 am 
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Thank you Goldenboy for putting this together. Have been exploring the linked threads. Excellent collection.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
In ACT, there are 12 categories of Values (from VALUED LIVING QUESTIONNAIRE):

1. Family (other than marriage or parenting)
2. Marriage/couples/intimate relations
3. Parenting
4. Friends/social life
5. Work
6. Education/training
8. Spirituality
9. Citizenship/community life
10. Physical self-care (diet, exercise, sleep)
11. Environmental issues
12. Art, creative expression, aesthetics

In ACT, you are supposed to rate them from 1 to 10 on how valuable it is for you.
ACT gets a little murky on 'values' at times. There's areas/things that are valuable to you, and then there are 'values' in the ACT sense that are more like 'qualities of action' / the how of doing things / ways that you want to be in the world / what you want to be about.

For example, you could value relationships and friendships highly, but the valued actions that you have control over transcend categories: honesty, integrity, loyalty, kindness, perseverance, courage. These are really about you and how you want to live (respond to life /challenges / opportunities).

There's the bulls eye activity somewhere which is quite nice, you rate how congruently you're living between your values and the valued area visually. You can do the same with the categories above, rate them out of ten for congruence.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
That is my main pet peeve (and not only mine) with ACT. They don't care much on the WHY we are sad, WHY we want what we want, WHY we value what we value, ...

Said differently : "ACT teaches you how to deal with things as they are.. rather than look at the causes, the root of the problem."
:) Personally, this is why I like ACT! Value neutral, not too much in depth analysis. A nice complement to our own individual journeys as we explore for ourselves.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
I WANT TO BE SURE THAT WHAT I'M SELECTING / WHAT I VALUE IS WHAT'S BEST. AND IT NEEDS KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION (not shouting at you btw :mrgreen:)
Also, knowledge gives you the power / will to change what needs to be changed.
;) What if there is no 'best'?

When I see best here, I'm thinking of outcome dependance. 'Best' for what?

I think we can apply 'best' to methods, to approaches, to solutions.. but not to values.

You value what you value, and you get to choose that. If you value family or wealth or health or experience - it's what matters to you. If you value integrity, or bravery, or perseverance, or gratitude - its what you want to be about. Just being that way is valuable in itself.

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You may follow one stream. Know that it leads to the Ocean, but do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:06 am 
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Hi Hineini,
THanks for your comments.

- About Values, totally agree with your differentiation.
I specified values categories, not values. For values, I personally used this one : https://www.actmindfully.com.au/wp-cont ... Harris.pdf (58 Values) and really liked doing the exercise.

- Interesting take on Value neutral being more to your liking.
I agree that it's up to the individual to explore further.

That said, here on NF, we're striving the be the best "version of ourselves", getting rid of the matrixes influence on us ...
ACT is specifically for therapists / patients relationships.
My "fear" is that in a way, it's like making the patients try various tastes of different steaks (Matrix analogy), all within their current "value system", and stopping when the patient found the steaks (values) that seem good for them now. Not putting all their lives in question, why they value this or that, ...

- About being a "best value", I may have written it badly.
I meant, when you don't know the financial matrix (aka the slavery system), you may value Power, Conformity, Justice, ...
But when you do learn about it, you may instead value Liberty, Responsibility, Generosity, ...

Same when you learn more about the Dating matrix (aka, NF's bait):
You may value Sexuality, Sensuality, Pleasure, Romantism, Love. -> Then you learn about it, and you may still value those, but BY YOURSELF, AND FOR YOURSELF :D, or value others, like Honesty, Authenticity, Self Affirmation, ...

You may not agree that values depend on our knowledge?
In my opinion, it does.
Because then, not only you really value what you value, but you also know that it's also an informed decision, not just what ACT write about Values being same as tastes : "I like chocolate", and not needing a reason why.

It's about sovereignty in a way.
You choosing what you value (another way to put it, in congruence with yourself, with deep intrinsic knowledge about yourself and the World), not accepting your "current values" as definite, because who knows who put them there.
Paraphrasing Grinus's signature. When you chisel away all the inessential, what is left are your real values / your "perfection".

Hope I'm clearer on "WHAT I'M SELECTING / WHAT I VALUE IS WHAT'S BEST".

I'm continuing on reading about it too and how many things can hold between those six processes.
Very useful for me as I'm clumsy and dispersed, and ACT is great for that.

Stumbled upon this on Reddit : https://i.imgur.com/47oqK6l.jpg
that I found somewhat related and beautifully done.

GB

_________________
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:27 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote: *
That said, here on NF, we're striving the be the best "version of ourselves", getting rid of the matrixes influence on us ...
ACT is specifically for therapists / patients relationships.
My "fear" is that in a way, it's like making the patients try various tastes of different steaks (Matrix analogy), all within their current "value system", and stopping when the patient found the steaks (values) that seem good for them now. Not putting all their lives in question, why they value this or that, ...
Yes, but we are still speaking about 'values' in two different ways.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
- About being a "best value", I may have written it badly.
I meant, when you don't know the financial matrix (aka the slavery system), you may value Power, Conformity, Justice, ...
But when you do learn about it, you may instead value Liberty, Responsibility, Generosity, ...

Same when you learn more about the Dating matrix (aka, NF's bait):
You may value Sexuality, Sensuality, Pleasure, Romantism, Love. -> Then you learn about it, and you may still value those, but BY YOURSELF, AND FOR YOURSELF :D, or value others, like Honesty, Authenticity, Self Affirmation, ...
Some of these are nouns or adjectives.. that's one type of value. That's a thing or quality that one can value. This I see as being subject to our understanding / learning / context.

Others, as adverbs - the way we want to do something, or respond (in the ACT sense), these values I think are more about the person that we want to be FOR US. Being courageous, honest, generous, caring, strong, indifferent (to outcome), authentically ourselves etc etc in the face of adversity and difficulty are satisfying in themselves. They're the making of character.

I think you could say that we value these because they're effective, and because by understanding how things operate we have chosen them? I see it a little differently - that whatever you value, even 'being romantic', if its fulfilling and enjoyable for you, then you are being your best self, and if you are not doing it to get anything out of someone else (manipulative) then you are by nature being indifferent.

Maybe there are some values I'm not thinking of here that could be badly chosen? :geek: I can't think of any myself.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
You may not agree that values depend on our knowledge?
In my opinion, it does.
Because then, not only you really value what you value, but you also know that it's also an informed decision, not just what ACT write about Values being same as tastes : "I like chocolate", and not needing a reason why.
Yes and No. See above.

To some extent I don't think we have free choice over our values. There is more 'discovery' involved in what feels 'right' to us, in what deeply aligns than in what we could choose consciously.

This is a little Jungian, but it does seem to me that there are some values that are deep in our socialisation and biology, in our cultural heritages and mythologies, in our nature as learning beings interacting with a world of stimuli. They are somehow deeply advantageous - but I think cultivating them (character traits) is far more difficult than knowing what they are.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
It's about sovereignty in a way.
You choosing what you value (another way to put it, in congruence with yourself, with deep intrinsic knowledge about yourself and the World), not accepting your "current values" as definite, because who knows who put them there.
Paraphrasing Grinus's signature. When you chisel away all the inessential, what is left are your real values / your "perfection".

Hope I'm clearer on "WHAT I'M SELECTING / WHAT I VALUE IS WHAT'S BEST".
Yes, I think we speaking at convergence. That route to 'what is best', or 'what is truest', or 'what is most essentially ourselves' - ACT is very light on. Still, I think of it as a very rough roadmap that is useful for giving me a little direction when I notice that I've become 'caught up' (usually in my mind or a story, or dysregulated), while giving some direction for experimenting, playing, and discovering the values as I go. (Personally, I've found getting heady about values and trying to exactly determine them feels wrong, it feels fused and life-draining rather than affirming).
GoldenBoy wrote: *
I'm continuing on reading about it too and how many things can hold between those six processes.
Very useful for me as I'm clumsy and dispersed, and ACT is great for that.

Stumbled upon this on Reddit : https://i.imgur.com/47oqK6l.jpg
that I found somewhat related and beautifully done.
I find myself revisiting it regularly in different ways. There are so many nice interplays between the processes.

I also find that practicing a process is very simple, and that I am also very good at making it complicated. ;)

The Reddit Map is nice - another way, in some ways it makes me think that we're trying to come up with ways to 'catch our minds' and come back out of whichever dream we've lost ourselves in - with little 'maps', 'processes', diagrams, meditations, reminders, routines... we're very funny unfortunate amazing animals in a way.

Reminds me of a Sufi quote:

"How you suffer,
you who mistake
your imagination for reality"

Thanks for the discussion GB.

_________________
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:09 am 
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Thanks for the insightful answer Hineini.

Definitely agree on many things you say. :)

On those :
- "that whatever you value, even 'being romantic', if its fulfilling and enjoyable for you, then you are being your best self, and if you are not doing it to get anything out of someone else (manipulative) then you are by nature being indifferent."

- "Maybe there are some values I'm not thinking of here that could be badly chosen? :geek: I can't think of any myself."

- "To some extent I don't think we have free choice over our values. There is more 'discovery' involved in what feels 'right' to us, in what deeply aligns than in what we could choose consciously."

- "I think cultivating them (character traits) is far more difficult than knowing what they are."

I agree to some extent. I'll ponder on a different way to expand on these subjects based on recent readings touching on this on a completely different "frame" that might be of interest.

_________________
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:05 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote: *
I agree to some extent. I'll ponder on a different way to expand on these subjects based on recent readings touching on this on a completely different "frame" that might be of interest.
Looking forward to it.

There are some things percolating, combining and changing.. enjoying the journey and the different angles. How NF & ACT work together, where they don't, personal understandings, and differences.

Glad to be on the journey together.

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You may follow one stream. Know that it leads to the Ocean, but do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:53 am 
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Indeed.

You talking about ACT was a great addition / new angle to this place. Thanks again for what you brought here ;)

As we're a lot of "analytical" people here imo, the way ACT (therapists) talk (with clients situations, with clear / cut / precise word and few things superfluous) , definitely appeal / relinquish / enlighten my thought processes, so I'm sure for many others too. Hence me just trying to apply it / compare to NF to incite readers here :)

I'm having much work to do at my place next couple of weeks, and I'll try to answer asap ;)

_________________
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:09 pm 
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Got some time this afternoon.

My recent readings are "Travels with UG" by Claire Thayer, "Lazy Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas. And an ACT book in french.
Also another source that I'll divulge when I'm done with my summarizing the books / translating them in english for you all.
[ I'm telling that, as ACT is heavily "scientific", and I'll be throwing some "spiritual" quotes. I'm planning a thread to put them side by side, putting everything together and see how well they compare before 2022 ]

@Hineini :
- "that whatever you value, even 'being romantic', if its fulfilling and enjoyable for you, then you are being your best self, and if you are not doing it to get anything out of someone else (manipulative) then you are by nature being indifferent."
- "Maybe there are some values I'm not thinking of here that could be badly chosen? :geek: I can't think of any myself."
- "I think cultivating them (character traits) is far more difficult than knowing what they are."

-> Again, for me it's about, how do you know that "being romantic", is really fulfilling and enjoyable FOR YOU?
And not because society / culture has told you to value / choose that? That it's good FOR YOU?
I don't care whether you are indifferent and enjoy your values. Are they really YOUR values? How do you define "fulfilling"?
At no point in ACT book do they ask people to question what they value, where the values come from.
For the last quote, it goes with cultivating traits as something your are not (not yet, as you want to cultivate it, rather than accept / know your current values [based on actual past behaviour, see very last quote]). Thus below quotes also apply.

Here's a suitable image in French imo (all the conditioning, Family, Religion, Culture, School, Media, Entertainment that you have to remove in other to find your "True Self") : https://i.imgur.com/Hzg2VUq.png

Three quotes by UG:
Quote:
This was my problem as a little boy: “Do I have anything to want other than what they want me to want, whether it is my family, or the religious teachers, or the society around me? What is it that I want? Whatever I want is what they want me to want.” But at that time it never occurred to me that not to want what they wanted me to want was also a want.
Then it hit me like a shaft of lightning ...

When once we are free from the demand to be something other than what we actually are, and if that energy is released, it becomes very, very simple and easy for us to function in this world sanely and intelligently.

The basic question which mankind has to pose is what kind of human being is wanted on the planet.
The concept that man can be adjusted to the value structure is just that, a concept, and this value structure is the cause of all neurosis and misery.
What they, it (the value structure) wants us to be is false, cannot be, and so what we're left with is suffering.
One by Thaddeus Golas:
Quote:
All agreements of action are equally pleasurable. In this respect, there is no standard of value by which to judge realities or states of consciousness.
We can be happy anywhere in the universe or unhappy anywhere, depending on whether or not we agree readily with the behavior of those around us.
--> When doing the "60 value questionnaire" two or three weeks ago, I got those 6 : Self affirmation, Authenticity, Freedom, Honesty, Responsibility, Trusting.
I'm not sure I'll have the same next year. The point is, it's probably a good indication / exercise, to put concepts / values into words, but it would be all so simple to hold on to them as truth / self / EGO.
It helps me to further dig why I value those so much now, instead of just accepting those as MY values.

A quote from French ACT book about defusing from values / definitions :
Quote:
Let us imagine a professional who considers himself to be "a frank and sincere therapist". If he is in fusion with this definition of himself as a therapist, he can be trapped in wanting to explain all his hypotheses to the patient, without taking into consideration the interest of the latter. He then acts to preserve the definition he has of himself, to follow the rule he has set for himself, and no longer to ensure that his patient advances in the commitment to what matters to him. The risk is then to destabilise the therapeutic relationship, from an exchange centred on the patient's difficulties to a monologue that aims to preserve what the therapist thinks of himself. By maintaining flexibility in relation to who they think they are and what others may think of them, the therapist thus serves as a model of self-acceptance for the the patient.
@Hineini - "To some extent I don't think we have free choice over our values. There is more 'discovery' involved in what feels 'right' to us, in what deeply aligns than in what we could choose consciously."[/quote]

-> Agree totally. We discover our values.
AND they change over time, as YOU (as the collection of past behavior, thoughts, feelings, history) evolve.
Hence, values are indeed a compass, not a strict thing to hold on to.

One Quote by Thaddeus Golas:
Quote:
Meanwhile we should realize that we tend to return to the vibration level where we feel stable, something we can "live with."
It's the level of stability, the level where we feel ourselves to be comfortably on the same vibration with others, that needs to be changed.
And that can be done only through an unresisting state of mind, a constantly expanding love.
Reminds me of Matrix:
“Do not try and bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth … There is no spoon. Then you’ll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.”

From a French ACT book:
Quote:
The deterministic approach of ACT
In the behavioural approach, it is the history of behaviours and consequences that determines future behaviour.
Each of our actions is the product of the behaviours we have performed and the consequences that followed.
Although the number of interacting variables is immeasurable and it is impossible to predict exactly what will happen, everything we do is determined by and flows from our behavioural history and the context in which we operate.
In a way, then, everything that each of us does is determined by our behavioural history and the context in which we live. In a way, therefore, everything we do is causally determined independently of our will. of our will.
But determinism should not be confused with fatalism (just as acceptance should not be confused with resignation).
The causal relationship between the individual and the environment is not unidirectional and each person has real room for manoeuvre.
When we commit ourselves to behaviours, we- behaviour, we regain some control over what happens to us, even if this choice even if this choice is ultimately the product of a history of interactions with the of interactions with the environment.
This is the subtlety of the ACT approach: while recognising that we are the product of a history and that this history cannot be changed, we can act in the here and now towards values that reflect our past history... but also future.
In computers, it's very difficult / impossible to have Confidentiality, Integrity, & Availability at the same time.
My point is, there might come a point where YOUR values, will go against what culture / society values.
At this stage in your life / evolution / consciousness, better be prepared for a shock / reevaluation of EVERYTHING you valued before. :mrgreen:

I think I may have gotten way off, my bad. :lol:
Not sure there's any significance to this post. But curious enough as to not delete it.

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Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:31 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote: *
My recent readings are "Travels with UG" by Claire Thayer, "Lazy Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas. And an ACT book in french.
Also another source that I'll divulge when I'm done with my summarizing the books / translating them in english for you all.
We're both influenced by our recent readings I'm sure. Curious what the other source might be.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
-> Again, for me it's about, how do you know that "being romantic", is really fulfilling and enjoyable FOR YOU?
And not because society / culture has told you to value / choose that? That it's good FOR YOU?
I don't care whether you are indifferent and enjoy your values. Are they really YOUR values? How do you define "fulfilling"?
The definition will never be the experience - must we define it, to know it?
My thinking here is that we can notice and pay attention to whether acting in certain value-aligned ways feels right and good (for us).
Values (by ACT definition) are ways of being that are intrinsically reinforcing: in other words personally meaningful.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
Three quotes by UG:
Quote:
This was my problem as a little boy: “Do I have anything to want other than what they want me to want, whether it is my family, or the religious teachers, or the society around me? What is it that I want? Whatever I want is what they want me to want.” But at that time it never occurred to me that not to want what they wanted me to want was also a want.
Then it hit me like a shaft of lightning ...
Insightful. Reacting against - is still begin controlled by. For good reasons, this also makes me think of indifference and double binds.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
Quote:
When once we are free from the demand to be something other than what we actually are, and if that energy is released, it becomes very, very simple and easy for us to function in this world sanely and intelligently.

The basic question which mankind has to pose is what kind of human being is wanted on the planet.
The concept that man can be adjusted to the value structure is just that, a concept, and this value structure is the cause of all neurosis and misery.
What they, it (the value structure) wants us to be is false, cannot be, and so what we're left with is suffering.
I like this, and I feel where you're coming from. I think that there is a kind of resolvability in bringing it back to your own personal experience, to noticing and paying attention to your behaviours and ways of being, and seeing from there what it is that feels right FOR YOU.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
One by Thaddeus Golas:
Quote:
All agreements of action are equally pleasurable. In this respect, there is no standard of value by which to judge realities or states of consciousness.
We can be happy anywhere in the universe or unhappy anywhere, depending on whether or not we agree readily with the behavior of those around us.
This doesn't sit quite right with me. I think that there are standards by which to judge - again inside oneself.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
--> When doing the "60 value questionnaire" two or three weeks ago, I got those 6 : Self affirmation, Authenticity, Freedom, Honesty, Responsibility, Trusting.
I'm not sure I'll have the same next year. The point is, it's probably a good indication / exercise, to put concepts / values into words, but
Quote:
it would be all so simple to hold on to them as truth / self / EGO.
It helps me to further dig why I value those so much now, instead of just accepting those as MY values.
Yes - hold them lightly. Know them, and what they are. Then be present, let them go - when moments of decision come up, where you will be called to make a choice in line with a value - then you can remind yourself of what is important to you, of what it is that you want to be about.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
A quote from French ACT book about defusing from values / definitions :
Quote:
Let us imagine a professional who considers himself to be "a frank and sincere therapist". If he is in fusion with this definition of himself as a therapist, he can be trapped in wanting to explain all his hypotheses to the patient, without taking into consideration the interest of the latter. He then acts to preserve the definition he has of himself, to follow the rule he has set for himself, and no longer to ensure that his patient advances in the commitment to what matters to him. The risk is then to destabilise the therapeutic relationship, from an exchange centred on the patient's difficulties to a monologue that aims to preserve what the therapist thinks of himself. By maintaining flexibility in relation to who they think they are and what others may think of them, the therapist thus serves as a model of self-acceptance for the the patient.
Have them, but don't be had by them.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
-> Agree totally. We discover our values.
AND they change over time, as YOU (as the collection of past behavior, thoughts, feelings, history) evolve.
Hence, values are indeed a compass, not a strict thing to hold on to.
Yes. They remind me also of 'virtues', of qualities to cultivate and develop. We can choose them as a direction, with time we become them, are shaped but them. We are always free to choose new ones, refine old ones, or let go of some that no longer resonate.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
From a French ACT book:
Quote:
The deterministic approach of ACT
In the behavioural approach, it is the history of behaviours and consequences that determines future behaviour.
Each of our actions is the product of the behaviours we have performed and the consequences that followed.
Although the number of interacting variables is immeasurable and it is impossible to predict exactly what will happen, everything we do is determined by and flows from our behavioural history and the context in which we operate.
In a way, then, everything that each of us does is determined by our behavioural history and the context in which we live. In a way, therefore, everything we do is causally determined independently of our will. of our will.
But determinism should not be confused with fatalism (just as acceptance should not be confused with resignation).
The causal relationship between the individual and the environment is not unidirectional and each person has real room for manoeuvre.
When we commit ourselves to behaviours, we- behaviour, we regain some control over what happens to us, even if this choice even if this choice is ultimately the product of a history of interactions with the of interactions with the environment.
This is the subtlety of the ACT approach: while recognising that we are the product of a history and that this history cannot be changed, we can act in the here and now towards values that reflect our past history... but also future.
In computers, it's very difficult / impossible to have Confidentiality, Integrity, & Availability at the same time.
My point is, there might come a point where YOUR values, will go against what culture / society values.
At this stage in your life / evolution / consciousness, better be prepared for a shock / reevaluation of EVERYTHING you valued before. :mrgreen:
GoldenBoy wrote: *
I think I may have gotten way off, my bad. :lol:
Not sure there's any significance to this post. But curious enough as to not delete it.
:) Worthwhile angles to explore IMO.

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You may follow one stream. Know that it leads to the Ocean, but do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:06 am 
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@Hineini,
Interesting conversation and angles.

--
The other source is an old conspiracy nutter lady (albeit, was a renown Doctor in Quebec before exposing "Medical Mafia") who put ten leaflets out exploring all the matrixes and out to free yourself from them. (called Personocratia)
Quite a workout to read / summarize, discard what is useless, research what seems wrong / right, ... :lol:
Hence my discussion with Altair about the legal matrix, where she seems to have missed some things, or I have misunderstood them.

Anyhow, I'm writing that as I'll probably be way off on my estimates about my future thread, as I have many things to do / repair here on my land for next month or more. Not Kidd like a year or two estimate hopefully ;) but life happens.
--

I was starting to quote / answer, but I figured I'm stuck on language / meaning of words / fusing with concepts, so stopped and changed tracks a bit.


On the quote by Golas:
Quote:
All agreements of action are equally pleasurable. In this respect, there is no standard of value by which to judge realities or states of consciousness.
We can be happy anywhere in the universe or unhappy anywhere, depending on whether or not we agree readily with the behavior of those around us.
You : This doesn't sit quite right with me. I think that there are standards by which to judge - again inside oneself.
Exactly what he's saying imo. The standards by which you judge, depend on the state of consciousness you're in, inside yourself.
So, for example, you may be happy in Afghanistan right now if you're a taliban (or "fan of their work"), and miserable in France if you don't like the NWO there...
Another of his quote that may shine further light:
Quote:
Once you begin to behave in the knowledge that no being is greater or lesser than you, then you are free to change, because you will feel stable no matter what level you are on. You will feel calm and sure of yourself with or without a body, with or without a job, a brain, a book to read, or a book to write.
About values, virtues to cultivate and develop, I seem to recall in an ACT book (I'll have to dig on my personal computer later on, it may be something else entirely) that they pretty much state the same as Golas above, formulated differently :
(paraphrasing) you may seem to judge other's behavior by your own current values, but if you had the same background / history they have, and the same frame of mind / thought processes that they have, you'd behave exactly the same too.

UG.
Quote:
So, you are not going to touch anything living at any time. You are not looking at anything; you are not in contact with anything living, as long as you use your thoughts to understand and experience anything. When that is not there, there is no need for you to understand and experience anything. So anything you experience only gathers momentum -- adds to that -- that's all. There is nothing that you can call your own.
That feels / seems right to me.
There's nothing I have experienced that someone else have not experienced before, and it's all just thought / mind / experience. So whatever you decide to "love" / accept / ..., is up to you ("Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right" Henry Ford)
Thus:
Language -> Words -> Knowledge -> Mind / Thought / You -> Division -> Suffering (thus, all our talking to explain / fix ourselves / live more closer to "our" values, ...) ??? ! :lol:

My latest reading is Dao De Jing, a very fine english translation : https://www.ln.edu.hk/econ/staff/daodej ... 002%29.pdf
It echos many things too as you'd expect, about values, actions.

Sorry if my message feels rush or not organized. :lol: it is.

_________________
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:39 pm 
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Location: UK
Hineini wrote: *
In computers, it's very difficult / impossible to have Confidentiality, Integrity, & Availability at the same time.
My point is, there might come a point where YOUR values, will go against what culture / society values.
At this stage in your life / evolution / consciousness, better be prepared for a shock / reevaluation of EVERYTHING you valued before. :mrgreen:
This very much reminds me of the 'three' of project management.

time, scope, and cost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_m ... t_triangle

echos can be heard around

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:29 pm
Posts: 91
GoldenBoy wrote: *
if you had the same background / history they have, and the same frame of mind / thought processes that they have, you'd behave exactly the same too.

..

There's nothing I have experienced that someone else have not experienced before, and it's all just thought / mind / experience. So whatever you decide to "love" / accept / ..., is up to you ("Whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right" Henry Ford)
Agreed, we are more conditioning than we would like to believe. All we can do is show up to the moment and notice when we have a choice one way or another - in line with what we want to be about, and away from it.
GoldenBoy wrote: *
Thus:
Language -> Words -> Knowledge -> Mind / Thought / You -> Division -> Suffering (thus, all our talking to explain / fix ourselves / live more closer to "our" values, ...) ??? ! :lol:
Or some variation. :lol: could also: Language = Words = Knowledge = Mind / Thought / You = Division = Suffering
GoldenBoy wrote: *
My latest reading is Dao De Jing, a very fine english translation : https://www.ln.edu.hk/econ/staff/daodej ... 002%29.pdf
It echos many things too as you'd expect, about values, actions.
A favorite!

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You may follow one stream. Know that it leads to the Ocean, but do not mistake the stream for the Ocean.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:03 pm 
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Posts: 1526
peregrinus wrote: *
Hineini wrote: *
In computers, it's very difficult / impossible to have Confidentiality, Integrity, & Availability at the same time.
My point is, there might come a point where YOUR values, will go against what culture / society values.
At this stage in your life / evolution / consciousness, better be prepared for a shock / reevaluation of EVERYTHING you valued before. :mrgreen:
This very much reminds me of the 'three' of project management.

time, scope, and cost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_m ... t_triangle

echos can be heard around
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
The topics part reminds me of ACT toolkit :mrgreen:

@Hineini: :lol: :mrgreen:
Indeed ;)

_________________
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.


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