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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2025 5:33 am 
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Well, I'll say it once more, thanks Flux of the finger pointing at him on my answer to Jared's post on his recovery : https://naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.p ... 142#p50142
You mentioned Methylene Blue might be a psyop.
After a lot of reading (his https://nutritiondetective.com/pages/ma ... -nutrition free book), and watching ten or so of his YT livestreams.
I gotta say, it's the most comprehensive, sourced and well thought out "theory" (as not accepted by peers, for obvious reasons) on Health, how we feed our chronic diseases because of what we eat.

His info :
https://nutritiondetective.com/
https://x.com/NutriDetect
https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionDetective


He focus on "over" types, as 95% of people are either overweight or this type
https://x.com/NutriDetect/status/1526202271251304448
Quote:
Excess bodyfat is a body/genetic type that is good at storing toxins, creating storage space for them

Underweight people are NOT good at storing toxins away from the blood

Hence why underweight ppl actually die earlier than overweight people

Both situations involve toxicity

--
My operating theory is that underweight ppl are further along the liver/bile pathway damage spectrum

It's not as much the total amount of toxins as it is the speed at which one can excrete them

Theory: overweight ppl make more bile and can thus get rid of toxins faster
So, I ripped all his livestreams transcript, added his book and another one from Grant Genereux, and fed it to Notebooklm to ask questions.

Here's a very nice breakdown of his method :
Quote:
General Principles for “Love Your Liver” Food Choices

The aim is to choose foods that support liver health by minimizing exposure to certain potentially problematic substances (Vitamin A, Copper, Manganese) while ensuring an adequate intake of essential nutrients and beneficial fiber. The approach is based on individual tolerance and simplicity.

Guiding principles:

1. Absolute priority: Very Low Vitamin A content (Retinol AND Carotenoids)
◦ Systematically avoid Vitamin A-rich foods: liver, whole/enriched dairy products, egg yolks, oily fish.
◦ Avoid highly colored fruits and vegetables (oranges, reds, yellows, dark greens): carrots, sweet potatoes, peppers, spinach, mangoes, etc.
◦ Prefer “white” or pale foods: white rice, white bread, white peeled potatoes, white mushrooms, white meat (chicken, turkey), certain lean white fish (if tolerated and not considered “fish” in the broad sense to be avoided).
◦ Acceptable fruits (if tolerated): apples and pears (peeled), bananas (yellow rather than brown).
2. Minimizing Copper and Manganese (Pragmatic Approach)
◦ The aim is to reduce overall intake, not to reach a precise numerical threshold.
◦ Avoid highly concentrated sources: liver, seafood, nuts, seeds, dark chocolate, dark tea.
◦ Recognize that some beneficial foods (legumes, whole grains) contain these minerals, but may be included depending on tolerance and their other benefits (see point 4 and 5).
3. Adequate Protein Intake
◦ Favor lean, well-tolerated protein sources: chicken/turkey fillet (preferably skinless), lean cuts of beef or bison (if tolerated), egg whites (occasionally, watch out for sulfur), and legumes (see point 5).
◦ Avoid pork (especially bacon) and processed meats.
4. Active search for Soluble Fibers
◦ Regularly incorporate sources of soluble fiber to help bind bile and potentially toxins.
◦ Preferred sources (if tolerated): oats (refined flakes or “rolled oats”), pearl barley, blond psyllium, pectin (peeled apples/pears), legumes (see point 5).
5 Reasoned inclusion of legumes (beans, lentils)
◦ Despite their copper and manganese content, legumes (particularly white beans, coral/yellow lentils) are often acceptable and even beneficial due to their richness in soluble fiber and resistant starch, and their low glycemic index.
◦ Their inclusion depends on individual tolerance.
◦ If canned, always rinse well to remove liquid.
◦ They can be a valuable source of protein and complex carbohydrates in this diet.
6. Listening to Individual Tolerance
◦ The most important principle: eat what is well tolerated. If a food causes symptoms, avoid it.
◦ Eating the same simple, well-tolerated foods regularly is acceptable and may even help identify sensitivities.
7. Moderation on Certain “Acceptable” Foods.
◦ Peeled white potatoes: ok, but avoid massive daily consumption due to glycoalkaloids (prefer 1-2 times/week or in moderate amounts).
◦ White rice: useful if high sensitivity, but beware of quality (arsenic) and potentially long-term glycemic impact if consumed as sole carbohydrate source. Rinse well before cooking.
8. Foods generally to be avoided or severely restricted
◦ Those already mentioned for Vit A, Cu, Mn (liver, seafood, nuts/seeds, colored vegetables, etc.).
◦ Dairy products (except potentially traces of fermented for probiotics if tolerated).
◦ Fish (mercury, Vit A interaction).
◦ Pork (especially bacon).
◦ Whole eggs (Vit A-rich yolk).
◦ Highly processed foods, added sugars, alcohol.
◦ Potentially: spicy foods, other solanaceae (peppers, tomatoes, eggplants) depending on tolerance.
9. Mineral support
◦ Ensure adequate intake of antagonistic or essential minerals often required: Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Potassium (e.g. bananas, potatoes in moderation), Magnesium. Use good-quality salt.

In summary: Build your meals around well-tolerated lean proteins, pale carbohydrate sources and/or those rich in soluble fibre (white rice, oats, barley, tolerated legumes, potatoes in moderation), and a few peeled pale fruits if desired. Strictly avoid foods very rich in Vitamin A and concentrated sources of Copper/Manganese. Always listen to your body.
The basis of his research :
Quote:
According to the sources provided, vitamin A toxicity and toxic bile are closely linked to a wide range of chronic diseases. Most chronic diseases today are considered to be directly or indirectly linked to vitamin A toxicity. The proposed underlying mechanism is often cholestasis, or liver damage, which causes bile to stagnate or leak into the bloodstream, affecting any part of the body where blood circulates.

Here's a list of the main diseases and chronic conditions mentioned in the sources as being associated with vitamin A toxicity and/or toxic bile/cholestasis:
- Autoimmune diseases, including autoimmune diabetes. Vitamin A toxicity is considered one of the absolute root causes of autoimmunity.
- Inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD). Isotretinoin (a form of vitamin A) has been associated with arthritis and IBD. Exposure to retinoids (vitamin A family) for the treatment of acne has been linked to the cause of IBD.
- Arthritis, mimicking rheumatoid arthritis and axial spondyloarthritis, induced by isotretinoin. Sacroiliitis is a classic symptom of Accutane (retinoid) toxicity.
- Liver problems. Chronic vitamin A consumption may be a significant cause of chronic liver disease. Vitamin A toxicity causes liver damage and cholestasis. Hepatic steatosis (fatty liver) is considered the hepatic manifestation of metabolic syndrome and a variation of long-term cholestasis. It can progress to cirrhosis and liver failure. Jaundice (icterus) is a sign of elevated bilirubin and potentially of cholestasis. Gallbladder problems and gallstones are linked to toxic bile.
- Kidney problems. Chronic kidney disease, kidney failure and kidney stones are mentioned. Bile in the blood can reach the kidneys.
- Cardiovascular disease. Sources suggest that hypervitaminosis A (vitamin A toxicity) may be a new risk factor for calcifying aortic valve disease. The role of beta-carotene and vitamin A in atherogenesis (development of blood vessel disease) is examined. Myocarditis has been mentioned as a possible effect related to liver injury and bile.
- Neurological and mental health problems. These include brain fog, memory problems, Alzheimer's disease, depression, anxiety, irritability, headaches, migraine, and idiopathic intracranial hypertension (high pressure inside the skull), a classic symptom of vitamin A toxicity. Retinoids and vitamin A are described as neurotoxic substances, capable of causing confusion, mental stupor and, in acute cases, altered behavior, polar psychosis (likened to schizophrenia).
- Eye diseases. Accumulation of retinaldehyde (a form of vitamin A) can cause eye disease. Vitamin A ruins the eyes. Eye problems are considered liver problems in Chinese medicine, with vitamin A causing both liver and eye problems. Xerophthalmia (dryness and degeneration of the eye) and keratomalacia are linked. Other symptoms include dry eyes, night blindness, visual disturbances, conjunctivitis and blurred vision.
- Skin and hair diseases. Problems include rashes, dry skin, desquamation, pruritus (itching), alopecia (hair loss), eczema and various skin disorders. Retinoic acid is described as a chemical peel that can dissolve cells.
- Gastrointestinal problems, including intestinal dysfunction, intestinal damage, leaky gut, constipation, diarrhea, nausea and vomiting. Pancreatitis may be caused by toxic bile moving up the pancreatic duct.
- Fatigue. Fatigue is one of the most common symptoms of chronic cholestasis.
- Anemia. Vitamin A toxicity can contribute to anemia by damaging red blood cells.
- Bone and calcium problems. Vitamin A toxicity can cause hypercalcemia (too much calcium in the blood) and contribute to tissue calcification. It can reduce bone mineral density (osteoporosis), leading to muscle and joint pain. Dental damage is also mentioned.
- Scurvy. One source indicates that vitamin A toxicity causes scurvy.
- Multiple sclerosis (MS). MS is reported as a side effect in people taking vitamin A.
- Metabolic syndrome, obesity and diabetes are also linked. Hepatic steatosis is the hepatic manifestation of metabolic syndrome.
- Thyroid problems (hypothyroidism).
- Respiratory diseases (bronchial asthma, persistent cough, shortness of breath). Bile in the blood can reach the lungs.

In summary, sources assert that vitamin A toxicity and toxic bile (cholestasis) are potential root causes or major contributing factors in a multitude of chronic diseases affecting various body systems.

And bonus for under types (I'm considering buying the program but for now, 200$ is too much) :
Quote:
Here are the key principles of the approach, as described in the sources:
1. Reduce toxin intake: This is the most important first step. It involves avoiding or minimizing known toxic substances, even those often considered good.
2. Correct nutritional deficiencies: This is another pillar of the approach.
3. Promote elimination of toxic bile: True detoxification involves getting rid of toxic bile, which is the “poop of the liver”. This is done primarily through the intestine, where bile binds to substances and is then eliminated in the stool.
◦ Binding agents such as soluble fiber or charcoal can help bind bile in the intestine so that it can be excreted.
◦ Adjusting soluble fiber intake is mentioned as a strategy to help eliminate toxic bile.
4. Support bile duct repair and bile production:
◦ Substances like lactoferrin are mentioned as being able to help heal bile duct (cholangiocyte) damage and potentially increase bile production and excretion.

Why you should NOT go “as fast as possible”:

This is the most crucial point regarding your question about speed. Sources constantly warn against trying to speed up the process:
- Trying to detoxify too fast can release too many toxins (stored in the liver or fats) into the bloodstream.
- Bile itself is the most toxic substance produced by the body. When it leaks into the bloodstream (cholestasis), it is toxic.
- Pushing too much toxic bile at once can further damage the liver, bile ducts and intestine.
- This can bring back old symptoms (“detox setback”) and even create new ones, making you feel terrible, or even worsening your overall condition.
- The process of repairing and eliminating decades of poison is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time.
- The speed has to be the “right speed”. You have to start slowly with interventions, especially for thin people who are very sensitive.
- Thin people (“under types”) are considered more sensitive, take longer to recover and require more care (“more care”). Their approach is distinctly different.

In summary, although the sources confirm your theory about the differences between “thin” and “overweight” types regarding liver damage, toxin management and bile production, the approach to repairing this damage is not to speed up the process. Instead, it emphasizes the need for a slow, careful and controlled process, focused on reducing incoming toxins, correcting deficiencies and safely eliminating toxic bile.

Specific details and individualization of this approach, especially for slim people, are available in the Love Your Liver program.
I'll keep this thread updated with my results starting in a couple of days as need to buy the necessary changes in diet / supplements.

_________________
People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people

Authority, when first detecting chaos at its heels,will entertain the vilest schemes to save its orderly facade.

What they hate in you, is missing in them.


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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2025 7:03 am 
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I'm adding, what AI thinks an accurate book presenting the LYL program / framework would be :

Quote:
Based on the guiding principles and framework of the "Love Your Liver" program as described in the provided sources, here is an outline or table of contents for a book:

Table of Contents: The Love Your Liver Program - A DIY Guide to Restoring Your Health at the Root

1. Introduction
1.1. The Liver: The Foundation of Your Health. Understanding why the liver is the most important organ for overall health.
1.2. The Toxic Bile Theory: The Root of Chronic Diseases. Presentation of the central concept that toxic bile is at the origin of many health problems.
1.3. The Love Your Liver Framework: A DIY Approach Based on Concepts and Principles. Explanation that the program does not offer specific protocols for each disease, but an adaptable framework.
1.4. The Importance of Self-Responsibility and Listening to Your Body. This program requires your active involvement to learn and adapt.

2. Part 1: Understanding Toxic Bile
2.1. What is Bile? Its production, essential functions (fat digestion, main detoxification pathway).
2.2. Why Bile Becomes Toxic: Toxins and Deficiencies. Factors that alter bile production and composition.
2.3. The Two Major Problems: Bile Leakage and the Wrong Bile "Recipe". Details of the two key aspects of the theory (leakage into the blood = cholestasis or liver damage; altered composition).
2.4. How Bile Leaks: Pathways of Leakage. Explaining how bile can end up in the blood (intrahepatic cholestasis, bile duct leaks, leaky gut, absorption by the stomach).
2.5. The Devastating Effects of Toxic Bile on the Body. How bile damages various tissues and organs (liver, bile ducts, intestine, stomach, kidneys, brain, etc.) and causes a multitude of symptoms.

3. Part 2: Implementing the Love Your Liver Framework
3.1. The Fundamental Principles: Reduce Toxins, Restore Nutrients, Eliminate Bile. The three-point action plan.
3.2. Why There Are No Specific Disease Protocols. The importance of individualization and experimentation based on your body's feedback.
3.3. "The Order of Adding Things": Prioritizing Your Actions. Presentation of this guideline to start with interventions having the greatest return for the lowest investment.
3.4. Learning to Listen to Your Body and Adapt. The key skill for navigating the program.

4. Part 3: Reducing the Toxic Load (Avoiding "Agitators")
4.1. Identifying Common Sources of Liver Damage and Toxic Bile:
4.1.1. Certain medications and chemicals.
4.1.2. Toxic metals (Copper, Aluminum, Manganese) and how they accumulate.
4.1.3. Problematic food components: High doses of Vitamin A, excess and specific types of fats (palm oil), aldehydes (from sugars, cooked meats), certain fibers.
4.1.4. Dental amalgams and other potential sources.
4.2. Strategies to Minimize Exposure and Start Slowly. Practical advice for reducing toxin intake.

5. Part 4: Restoring Essential Nutrients (Addressing Deficiencies)
5.1. Why Nutrient Deficiencies Affect the Liver and Detoxification. The crucial role of micronutrients.
5.2. Key Minerals and Their Role (Potassium, Magnesium, Selenium, Molybdenum, Zinc, Copper Antagonists). Details on the most important minerals to correct.
5.3. The Importance of B Vitamins (Thiamine/B1, Niacin/B3). Their link to aldehyde detoxification.
5.4. Protein Sources and Considerations. The importance of sufficient protein intake and choice of sources.
5.5. Applying "The Order of Adding Things" to Nutrients. How to prioritize supplementation or dietary adjustments.

6. Part 5: Supporting Bile Elimination and Gut Health
6.1. Why Eliminating Bile Through Stool is Crucial. Avoiding reabsorption.
6.2. Using Bile Binders: Soluble Fibers and Activated Charcoal. Presentation of key tools for binding bile in the intestine.
6.3. How to Use Binders Safely. Start slowly, "buffer" if necessary, address constipation *before* using charcoal.
6.4. Understanding the Gut Microbiome. How toxic bile affects the bacterial composition of the gut.
6.5. Addressing Gut Dysbiosis: Probiotics and Other Strategies. Individualized approach based on digestion types (fermentative vs. putrefactive).
6.6. Using Temporary "Crutches" (Glycine, Taurine). How to use them initially while being aware they can become problematic over time.
6.7. Other Elimination Supports (Niacin enema, potential homeopathic therapies, Lactoferrin - with caution). Mentioning other possible tools.

7. Part 6: Lifestyle and Advanced Topics
7.1. Light, Hydration, and Movement. The importance of these basic factors.
7.2. Managing Stress and Emotions. Their impact on the liver and bile.
7.3. Understanding Your Digestive Type (Overweight/Underweight Types). How the program can be adapted.
7.4. Troubleshooting Common Issues (The flush, constipation, feeling worse before feeling better). Knowing what to do in response to reactions.
7.5. The Role of Testing (Hair tests, blood tests). How tests can refine the approach (note that this is part of consultations, not the basic DIY program).
7.6. The Online Community (Love Your Liver Network). How peer support can help (while discerning information).

8. Conclusion
8.1. Recap: The Liver, Toxic Bile, and Key Principles. Summarizing the problem and the solution.
8.2. The Path to Health: Patience and Perseverance. The process takes time and requires perseverance.
8.3. Hope and Empowerment: Taking Back Control of Your Health. The program gives you the tools to do so.

This book outline is designed to present the Love Your Liver program and the Toxic Bile Theory in a structured manner, focusing on the key concepts and principles mentioned in the sources. It emphasizes the DIY aspect of the program and the need for the individual to invest in learning and experimentation.

And, his most important aphorisms and one liners :
Quote:
1. Teach a person to fish, and they eat for a lifetime. The program aims to teach people how to apply concepts and principles on their own to figure out what is right for them, rather than just being given instructions.
2. This program is based on concepts and principles, not a rigid protocol. It provides the framework so people can learn to apply it independently and discover what works for them.
3. The poison always wins. This highlights the primary importance of avoiding toxicity in healing.
4. Your chronic health issues are often related to toxic bile. The underlying theory is that many modern chronic diseases are due to toxic bile leaking into the bloodstream along with its toxins.
5. Slow down and proceed gradually. This is crucial advice, especially for newcomers, emphasizing the need to listen to your body and increase doses or steps carefully.
6. If you choose to disregard advice, you had better be tough. This is a warning about not following instructions, particularly regarding starting dosages or buffering niacin, as it can lead to unpleasant symptoms.
7. The order in which you introduce changes is critically important. This refers to the LYL program's recommended sequence of actions for beginners.
8. The goal is less toxicity coming in and more toxicity leaving. This is the fundamental approach to healing within the program.
9. Test, don't guess, then address. This is the philosophy for analyzing health issues, implying the use of tests like hair and blood tests to guide the process.
10. Generally, when you heal the liver, overall health improves. The program focuses on restoring liver health and addressing underlying issues, which often leads to improvements across various health problems.
11. Address nutrient deficiencies, especially mineral deficiencies. Correcting mineral imbalances is a key part of the healing process, alongside reducing toxicity.
12. Healing is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time and requires patience; it's a long-term process.
13. Listen to your body's patterns and trust your own experience above all else. This emphasizes the need for individuals to pay attention to how their own body responds, even over practitioners who don't respect those patterns.
14. Poisons beget poisons; the more toxic you are, the more toxins you may crave. This saying describes how toxicity can drive cravings for more toxic substances, creating a cycle.
15. Toxins of a feather flock together. This principle suggests that generally toxic foods tend to contain multiple toxic compounds.
16. You must reduce toxin intake before you begin actively detoxifying. This highlights the crucial first step of minimizing the intake of toxic substances before focusing on elimination pathways.
17. If you're feeling bad, you're likely pushing things too hard. This is a key sign used for troubleshooting within the program, indicating that the detoxification process or introduction of supplements is happening too quickly.
18. Does it hurt when you do this? Well then, don't do that. This is a simple, logical rule for troubleshooting symptoms; if something you are doing causes a negative reaction, stop doing it.
19. See the forest, not just the trees; don't get lost in the details. This encourages focusing on the core principles and the overall picture of health rather than getting overly focused on minor details or individual symptoms/compounds.
20. Everybody is different. This is the fundamental reason why a one-size-fits-all protocol does not work and why individualization based on symptoms, testing, and listening to one's body is necessary.
I'll now use AI to populate the book, hopefully I end up with 100+ pages pdf at the end, really summarizing his hundreds of hours of livestreams.

_________________
People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people

Authority, when first detecting chaos at its heels,will entertain the vilest schemes to save its orderly facade.

What they hate in you, is missing in them.


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2025 6:47 pm 
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Oh! didn't know you posted this here.

I actually want to start his liver program one day.
I haven't done as much reading but I follow his Twitter.

Some things I follow currently...
Basically a lot of people are fat not just because they eat a lot but because the body is protecting them. Holding toxins in the fat. The bile can be released into the body and then removed by using binders. (Fiber and activated charcoal)

Not all vegetables are good nor want to be eaten. That's why they have protection mechanisms or release compounds to damage animals. Some of the vegetables or fruits add to the toxins in the system or calcify the joints.

Basic rules.
Fruits and vegetables with white only (or off-white/light green) :Apples Bananas
Take Fiber
Oats and Beans (not all beans are good, lighter the better) , Maybe rice (arsenic has to be removed)
Activated charcoal (Don't take right after eating, will remove good minerals too.
No vitamin A - don't consume.
Muscle meat only - no organs or eggs.
Good minerals: Search his twitter

No pick salt: Pink = rust.

_________________
"...There is only one thing you can do. Master that one thing!...What you must be doing is visualizing yourself at your most powerful. You don't need any external enemies. The only opponent you must fight, is none other than your own image."


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2025 7:12 pm 
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Man, check your PM ;) a large present for you.

A small part of it :
Quote:
Foods Rather Low in Vitamin A
These foods generally contain negligible or very low amounts of vitamin A and carotenoids. They are often pale or white in color.
• Cereals and Starches (unfortified):
◦ White Rice
◦ Pasta (unfortified)
◦ White bread (unfortified)
◦ Potatoes (white flesh, especially peeled and boiled for a long time, according to one extract)
◦ White Flesh Sweet Potatoes (Japanese varieties for example, mentioned as being low in A despite the name “sweet potato”)
• Some Pale or White Fruits and Vegetables:
◦ Bananas (specifically mentioned as loved and low in A in one excerpt)
◦ Pears
◦ Apples (flesh)
◦ Cucumbers (peeled flesh)
◦ Cauliflower (mentioned as a cruciferous vegetable to be preferred because it is white)
◦ Mushrooms
◦ Onions
◦ Garlic
◦ Celery
◦ Zucchini (pale flesh)
◦ Asparagus (mentioned in an excerpt)
• Muscle Meats:
◦ Beef (muscle)
◦ Chicken (flesh)
◦ Pork (muscle)
◦ Fish (flesh, except liver oils)
◦ Lamb (muscle) (These sources are rich in Zinc and Taurine, nutrients that extracts suggest may be more relevant for some functions misattributed to Vitamin A, such as vision or skin health. They are also significantly lower in Vitamin A than organ meats.)
• Some Red Fruits (exceptions to the color rule):
◦ Strawberries
◦ Raspberries (Mentioned in an extract as red fruits that are not necessarily rich in Vitamin A/carotenoids).
• Very Light Colored Butter: Indicates lower carotenoid content.
Including more of these foods in the diet can help reduce overall vitamin A intake, especially when replacing rich sources.
Quote:
Foods Rather Low in Copper
The reference extracts do not provide a detailed list of foods specifically labeled as “low” in copper. The emphasis is on identifying and limiting rich sources . However, based on the available information and in contrast with rich sources, it can be inferred that some foods are relatively less concentrated in copper.
• Muscle Meats (Beef, Chicken, Pork, Lamb): Although they contain copper, concentrations are generally lower than those found in offal, nuts, seeds, or legumes. They are also valued in this context for their zinc and taurine content.
• Most Fruits and Vegetables (other than those listed as high): Many fruits and vegetables that are not legumes, mushrooms, or intense carotenoid sources (and therefore potentially low in Vitamin A), are also less concentrated in Copper than nuts, seeds, or organ meats.
• Dairy Products (milk, yogurt, cheese): Generally lower in Copper than sources listed as high.
• Refined Grains (White Rice, Pasta, White Bread - Not Whole Grain): The refining process often removes some of the minerals, including Copper, found in the germ and bran. (Note: This is not a validation of these foods per se, just an observation on their Copper content.)
The most prudent approach, in the absence of comprehensive lists of foods low in Copper in sources, is to focus on moderating or avoiding foods high in Copper, while favoring animal protein sources (muscle meats) and pale vegetables/fruits which are also low in Vitamin A.

_________________
People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people

Authority, when first detecting chaos at its heels,will entertain the vilest schemes to save its orderly facade.

What they hate in you, is missing in them.


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