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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:10 am 
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Hey guys,

I'm noticing subtler and subtler ways that I try to influence people's influence of me. Funnily enough, these subtle ways are quite large and are rooted much deeper compared to the surface layer things. I feel like I'm delving deeper and deeper into my core issues, and stripping back the faux-problems was a necessary step. Helps to view what I've achieved up to now as progress, even though it doesn't always seem that way.

Anyway, I have something I'd like some outside perspective on, even though I'm observing to find out if I can get to the bottom of it on my own. Outside perspective does help though. Here it is:

Whenever I feel that somebody doesn't do what I want, or what I expect of them, I turn bitter. I can't talk to them freely and indifferently. It pisses me off that they act this way and disrespect me. Then I have this conflict, where on the one side I have me not wishing to communicate with them, but on the other side wanting to have a good relationship with said person.

I'll give an example. I'm home for the holidays, and my brother is acting like King Asshole. I'll try (maybe trying is the problem) to not let it phase me, but then I find that I ignore him and try to be by myself and get away from him. I can't simply laugh about it, see it as him being 14 and all and let it go. I'm thinking it's because I still see negative behavior as a threat. But how should I react if I know that I shouldn't care? It's said that one should treat people accordingly, but I won't send the negative behavior back at people.

Getting over this bitterness and being care free is a huge step that I know I need to take. That, coupled with me starting to realize my continuing attachment to outcome, are 2 things I'd like to finally get past.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:58 pm 
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moose35 wrote:
Whenever I feel that somebody doesn't do what I want, or what I expect of them, I turn bitter. I can't talk to them freely and indifferently. It pisses me off that they act this way and disrespect me. Then I have this conflict, where on the one side I have me not wishing to communicate with them, but on the other side wanting to have a good relationship with said person.
Have you told them what bothers you?
moose35 wrote:
It's said that one should treat people accordingly, but I won't send the negative behavior back at people.
So, I'll assume you only want to behave positively? All right, so anyone can do anything to you (beat you up, rob you, etc.), but you "won't send the negative behavior back at people"? That is counterproductive, i.e. your behavior is positive for the other person and negative for you, because you aren't discouraging their behavior.
moose35 wrote:
Getting over this bitterness and being care free is a huge step that I know I need to take. That, coupled with me starting to realize my continuing attachment to outcome, are 2 things I'd like to finally get past.
I've been working with that as well. What helped me was first to be honest with myself. How do I feel about the situation. Analyze it. Was I disrespected/unfairly treated (etc.) and how much so?

And then just treating the people accordingly, which makes the bitterness disappear (never underestimate the satisfaction of revenge :twisted:)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:04 pm 
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And your younger brother, just kick his ass! :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Well, that was basically me labeling my continuing anger at myself for caring about other people's judgments of me. Labeling myself as the victim, because I'm attached to their opinion and don't want to let them know that they're acting like a bitch and risk negative opinions or loss of relationship with said person. That's what I have continued to hold on to, finding new and different ways to try and explain what I'm doing and rationalizing it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:36 am 
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moose35 wrote:
But how should I react if I know that I shouldn't care? It's said that one should treat people accordingly, but I won't send the negative behavior back at people.

Getting over this bitterness and being care free is a huge step that I know I need to take. That, coupled with me starting to realize my continuing attachment to outcome, are 2 things I'd like to finally get past.
Caring or not caring is not an intellectual decision - it's not like you learn that you shouldn't care, and then you learn some appropriate 'not caring' behavior. The behavior arises from the genuine emotion (or lack of emotion). Making the commitment to developing indifference and non-attachment IS a decision.

The place to start is to be brutally honest and acknowledge that you care when you care. There is no point being hard on yourself because you had no say in the matter, something happened, and the 'caring' arose. You didn't "do" caring- this is different than if you took a stupid action like texting a girl some BS, you can control the actions but not the actual arising of the emotion. That just happened. Everything you are talking about after the fact is just layers of bullshit on top of what already happened. Yes maybe you can learn behaviors that don't show your cards but why not get to the source so your ACTUAL reaction is to laugh, instead of getting pissed, but then thinking about what you've read, and then deciding to laugh because that is supposed to be more powerful. You get that fake laugh - not the alpha dog in the room who thinks the drama is cute.

When the caring comes up is when I try to walk right into it honestly, be with the discomfort of it, including the "i shouldn't feel this" and let it show you what it is that you actually care about.

It's always about something deeper and that's the best way I know to find what it is so you actually deal with it. It's like when dudes get heavily triggered if a girl doesn't talk to them or react positively to them. They don't actually care that this particular girl didn't talk to them, but what is getting triggered is not just some random chick, it's probably some whole story about why girls never liked them, some girl that rejected them that formed an identity, etc. Otherwise, you would actually see it as just a random girl who you didn't click with, instead of all the emotional charge.

It's easy to dismiss the thing as something that shouldn't trigger you because it seems silly - like someone just being a dick, but what it is actually triggering is something within you. There is no default answer you have to probe into it, and not hide behind trying not to feel it. It could be very surprising what it is. I used to hate anyone acting "cocky" when some times they were just confident, and what was triggered was my own lack of confidence making them wrong.

If you didn't have some unresolved shit in yourself you literally would not notice or care a lot of triggers. You've been out with people before and someone will do or say something that flips someone out, something you didn't even notice, because it is a trigger for them.

So be brutally honest with yourself with whatever you feel and whatever your reactions are so you can confront the source of them. It's more painful but so much more effective than trying to learn behaviors to cover it up - it's the guy equivalent of wearing tons of makeup and acting fake.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:57 am 
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What Flow said. Also, on a related note, you could try looking into projections, and see if this is what is happening (not saying for sure that it is). I am aware of 2 types of projection (for all I know, there may be more):

a) when you hate someone for a quality in themselves that you have within yourself which you are secretly/subconsciously ashamed of. eg you're driving and someone cuts you off and you just want the motherfucker to die. A few days later you catch yourself doing the same to someone else, albeit not so dangerously. My reaction at this point is usually to laugh my ass off at my own folly. This one is picked up on through self-observation (really an ongoing background monitoring).

b) a kind of "opposite effect". You hate someone because they seem to be representing a kind of antithesis of a trait that you have which, once again, you are secretly/subconsciously ashamed of. Their behaviour subconsciously shines a light on that which you are ashamed of in yourself, and may even be subtly forcing it into the open, while you are trying to keep it locked in the cellar. This, in turn, causes you to resent them even more. For example, someone obnoxious seems to be focusing on you despite your best attempts to diffuse the situation. If you are a little too timid for your own good (bear in mind that I am not saying that I advocate the "alpha male" approach to life) and don't check these fuckers as readily as you should, this guy's behaviour would certainly shine a light on that, and by forcing it out into the open, he would be forcing you to confront something in you that you don't think it is time to face yet, and you would resent him more for it. This could be what's happening here, but you would know best.

Also worth noting, if it happens to be b) above, at some point (I guess after you have come to terms with whatever it is) you should consider that this is life doing you a sweet favour. It is forcing you to deal with something that you were procrastinating on, and it was compensating for your reluctance to deal with it by throwing it in your face, because life (and your subconscious mind) really want you to be a fully realised being and an awesome fucker.

So these circumstances and assholes are all actually in your corner (in the grand scheme of things). However, since the assholes are not aware of this and are therefore not helping you ON PURPOSE, I personally wouldn't thank them to their face, only in my mind, but that's just me....

If this is off the mark, sorry for wasting your time. On the other hand, it will be useful at some point or another anyway....

Also, Flow:
Flow83 wrote:
it's the guy equivalent of wearing tons of makeup and acting fake.
This is really cool; I never thought of it like this :lol: :lol: :lol: . Thanks for that.....

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:02 am 
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Further to the above, something that I read in an Eckhart Tolle book, which I am becoming more and more inclined to agree with:
Quote:
How do you know that this is the experience you need? Because it is the experience you are having now
Or something to that effect.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:27 am 
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Niiice. Yes I love that quote and all the versions of it throughout history, it's such a more powerful mindset to get out of victim mentality.

Projections, yeah. That is what it is at some level, because there's nothing else it could be. You wouldn't even notice it, if it did not trigger or show something that is active within you. Someone else in the room with you and your brother might not even notice his behavior and find you offensive because of your posture, or the shirt you are wearing, or some shit that 'means' something to them that also has no basis in Truth. The good news is, this applies both ways. See something that inspires you, you think is powerful, cool, etc? That is because you have those qualities within you and those things inspire it.

5 of us listen to the same thing right now and one might tune out, another is motivated to go kick ass and change the world, another thinks it's silly and stupid. So is the track inspiring or is it boring or is it stupid? It's inherently nothing. It didn't GIVE you any of those feelings, they were already in you and something seemed to activate it.

Everything you think an amazing girl could give you? Already in you - everything a million dollars? Already in you - we are trained to project the qualities onto those things, and that's why most of the world can't believe a zen monk is *really* happy there in his practice. The things you DON'T like or fear? Yeah.. also in you. Remember Peregrinus' quote about making friends with his demons? Didn't say 'made them go away' - didn't say changed their form or their nature, but changed the relationship to them and gave them a different meaning.

So if you seem to care about something, or are in conflict about something, the answer is in you, and what seems to be lacking or unsatisfied also can be resolved by you. Especially if you are willing to take responsibility for giving the situation the meaning that it does and looking at why you do.

Don't take the cop out route that takes these concepts to mean you just sit down and release and then suddenly everyone is nice to you or problems just go away. You'll just be clearer on clearer on whether or not you need to take action and what will actually resolve the situation.. to give you what you NEED even if it's not going to be something you like, or will be comfortable with, at ALL. This is much different than hoping that by doing 'inner work' that the world just turns pretty - you will see what needs to be done and will do it. If you don't, that's OK, it will just keep putting the same shit in front of you over and over and over until you do, or it kills you 8-)

And - it doesn't mean the guy isn't an asshole. The whole dog and pony show about the reaction, then the reaction to the reaction, then the thought "i'm not supposed to care" - all of that you can actually work with, whether or not it changes the dudes behavior at all which it probably won't. It just won't be that relevant to you - and if he becomes a *legitimate* threat to you physically or your relative life in some way (super rare) you'll deal, swiftly and effectively, but not to prove some point to yourself.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:52 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
The good news is, this applies both ways. See something that inspires you, you think is powerful, cool, etc? That is because you have those qualities within you and those things inspire it.
Thanks, Flow. I CLEAN forgot about this one!

3rd type of projection:
c) a POSITIVE one, whereby let's say you are really enamoured by a chick (not her looks, but her warm, disarming personality or something), or really admire someone for their talents, abilities, or some aspect of their personality, and they just kinda 'glitter'. For some reason, we just assume that this quality (or these qualities) lie within that person ONLY, and not in us. But the truth is that, the only way we could even identify these qualities within the other person is if they are already in us, but for some reason (low self-esteem, lack of confidence, fear of the responsibility that expressing and using these qualities entails, or whatever) we bury them the same way we bury the "negative" aspects that we also project onto others in types a) and b) in my previous posts.

This type of projection is really worth keeping in mind. If we can admire someone, ANYONE, well then we are already way cooler than we realise........ (caveat: provided we admire them for a quality that is worthwhile, as opposed to the something like "this dude gets laid a lot" or "that guy is really loaded", ALTHOUGH even these have their merits :mrgreen: )

If anyone would like to add anything about projections (or "Mirrors", as 'Grinus likes to say :lol: ), I think they should. This is a very important subject for our self-development, and is one of the TRICKIEST to deal with, I find. However, if we are to expand on it, we should do it in a fresh thread, and leave this one for moose, who is probably off somewhere doing push-ups :lol: :lol: :lol: (which is what I should be doing too.....)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:27 am 
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Good posts guys... Enjoying reading this thread.

As has been said, this is an important subject. (Mirrors and Projections)

--
Flow83 wrote:
So be brutally honest with yourself with whatever you feel and whatever your reactions are so you can confront the source of them. It's more painful but so much more effective than trying to learn behaviors to cover it up - it's the guy equivalent of wearing tons of makeup and acting fake.
Beautiful
Flow83 wrote:
Remember Peregrinus' quote about making friends with his demons? Didn't say 'made them go away' - didn't say changed their form or their nature, but changed the relationship to them and gave them a different meaning.
Correct.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Thanks for the replies guys, I will be digesting them as these thoughts come along.

I do have one question though. When you say change your relationship to the demons, what exactly does that mean? Do you accept them as part of you and move on, never trying to change it? Or stop viewing it as a weakness but rather an objective fact?

To clarify, I want to change the fact that I view myself as inferior, that I'm always checking people's opinions of me and that I anticipate negativity. I know where this comes from and I know why it's wrong. And yet it's still there, and I attribute that to uncovering deeper and deeper layers of it and resisting it, thus letting it persist. But I don't want to live that way, and I don't want these demons running my life. So what exactly do you guys mean when you make peace with your demons? Or rather, changing your relationship to them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:55 pm 
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moose35 wrote:
I know where this comes from and I know why it's wrong.
You need to get rid of it because it is "wrong," and it is running your life.

You're not exploring that it's *because* you have judged it as wrong, and because you are trying to get rid of it (trying to accept it in order to get rid of it is just trying to get rid of it, exact same defenses come up), THAT is the actual reason it is running your life. It's classic resist persist thus the need for a change in relationship.


I probably could tell you why viewing yourself as inferior and anticipating something as negative is not "wrong" and why it was installed in you, and why those reasons were positive, even necessary at the time they were installed, and you might actually view it with deep respect and compassion when seeing it's function - and it might then finally see that it can ease up on you.. that same energy that is obviously powerful enough to TAKE YOU OVER could trust that you get it now and work with you - but that would take the exploration away. The bottom line is you don't know as much as you think you do about yourself and you don't trust yourself, by definition, because of your relationship to these "bad" parts of you, and your need to put a cage on them despite seeing over and over again that you actually can't. If they have the power to 'run your life' - it's time to rethink some shit about who is in control, what is 'you' and what is really going on here.. the stuff that we "already know" is usually the nail in the coffin.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Remember that when things come up, you are the one who decides what they mean.

Here is a disgusting analogy you may find useful ( i don't know anatomy so even though this may medically make no sense the analogy should still apply :D )

Say you had some bacteria in your stomach that could potentially kill you from digesting certain foods. So what happens is you start feeling sick and throwing up a lot- all this throwing up is painful, uncomfortable, and "ruining your life" because you're not getting nutrition. You do internet/self diagnosis and get real confident about what the source is of all this throwing up is, obviously it's "bad", it's painful and affecting you. Soon you have a whole story about throwing up and you're trying to stop it, you start visualizing not throwing up or doing stupid affirmations about it, then you try to 'make peace' with it really hoping it will stop.

Except it's actually there to save your life from something you'd never have known. You should have been thanking it every time it happened, but it's hard to even consider that when something is unpleasant and on the surface seems to just be doing damage. Clear your mind to any decisions about what something means, trust that your unbelievably complex physical/emotional system does things for a reason and go into pure exploration without judgement, eventually leading to the deeper underlying cause. It takes a lot of self-discipline to be able to look at something objectively, especially if it is uncomfortable.

You would have a massively different "relationship" to getting sick with the fuller perspective. In fact something like this happened to me recently, I believe it was food poisoning, in the midst of 10 hours of travel - honestly it was simultaneously a nightmare and an incredibly powerful experience as I took this approach to it. It taught me a lot.

Feeling inferior is not a cause, it is a symptom.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:47 am 
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Flow83 wrote:
Remember that when things come up, you are the one who decides what they mean.

Here is a disgusting analogy you may find useful ( i don't know anatomy so even though this may medically make no sense the analogy should still apply :D )

Say you had some bacteria in your stomach that could potentially kill you from digesting certain foods. So what happens is you start feeling sick and throwing up a lot- all this throwing up is painful, uncomfortable, and "ruining your life" because you're not getting nutrition. You do internet/self diagnosis and get real confident about what the source is of all this throwing up is, obviously it's "bad", it's painful and affecting you. Soon you have a whole story about throwing up and you're trying to stop it, you start visualizing not throwing up or doing stupid affirmations about it, then you try to 'make peace' with it really hoping it will stop.

Except it's actually there to save your life from something you'd never have known. You should have been thanking it every time it happened, but it's hard to even consider that when something is unpleasant and on the surface seems to just be doing damage. Clear your mind to any decisions about what something means, trust that your unbelievably complex physical/emotional system does things for a reason and go into pure exploration without judgement, eventually leading to the deeper underlying cause. It takes a lot of self-discipline to be able to look at something objectively, especially if it is uncomfortable.

You would have a massively different "relationship" to getting sick with the fuller perspective. In fact something like this happened to me recently, I believe it was food poisoning, in the midst of 10 hours of travel - honestly it was simultaneously a nightmare and an incredibly powerful experience as I took this approach to it. It taught me a lot.

Feeling inferior is not a cause, it is a symptom.
Excellent analogy! Made the concept of accepting your demons clear to me.

How I deal with demons is as follows:
Say I let something like social anxiety (a demon) make me act foolishly or do something stupid. I would just accept the fact that in that particular situation, anxiety got the best of me and that is ok. I would then reflect on why I let the anxiety affect me in a negative manner or what caused the anxiety in the first place.

Through that process, I have diagnosed my demon (social anxiety) through interpreting the symptoms (acting foolishly), now all i have to do is try to treat that problem. Usually my treatment is just using logic to get past the emotions or symptoms.

i.e. Perhaps social anxiety is stopping me from asking a question in class, I'll simply tell myself "Asking this question is in your best interest, who gives a shit if other people think you are stupid for asking this question" then I will ask the question.

By diagnosing and treating your demons, you are making them beneficial to yourself because this process contributes to personal development. The more you accept and deal with your demons, the less they will hinder you.

In my case, after I get over that first hurdle, or ask that first question, it will become progressively easier and natural to ask later questions. Will i still have anxiety before asking a question? Probably, but the severity of the debilitating nature of the anxiety will be much less and the frequency with which this anxiety pops up will be much less as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:41 am 
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The biggest change in my mindset toward dealing with the crap people did was I completely disengaged my emotions from what the actual actions were.

What Jdogg said. If there is a logical benefit to my action I will take it but I won't let someone's inconsideration be a double edge sword and emotionally wound me and cause me to take an action that is bad for me out of spite. :|

Cloaking also applies to people you know as well. :geek: be soundless, formless, nothing can cause a reaction in you except for that fleeting moment in which it passes through you.

Sun Tzu "A mark of a good soldier is that he fights on his terms or not at all"

Allowing others to emotionally influence you is simply bad strategm.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:15 am 
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Nice!

There is a certain space you have developed to actually be able to distance yourself from the emotion, so it is not immediately taking over and becoming "you" - don't take it for granted and give yourself credit, more people than not take the role of being victim to whatever arises and say they can't help it. Same with sex drive - a really convenient excuse to say that some natural thing "made" you act a certain way.

My experience is that it's because you are willing to let it pass through you and to feel it that you can engage it on that level. Instead of the social anxiety coming up and you freaking out - social anxiety! again! this is ruining everything. How do I get rid of this?! What process do I need to do when I go home to work on this!? You feel it, and then you look at it.

You probably did speak out loud once in your life and were made to feel stupid for doing it. Even if it wasn't something as overt as people mocking you, chances are it happened. So part of you learned "don't do that again, bad shit might happen if I ask this question."

It's literally the same mechanism that tells you not to touch a hot stove if you do it once. It's looking out for you - there is no reason to get so mad at it. It literally IS your friend and literally is not a demon, but if you are only seeing from one perspective all you see is "i want to be social or ask this question and this evil thing won't let me."

What you do next is beautiful because you acknowledge it - and then engage it, thanks, but I need to learn something here, it's to my benefit to ask this question. In fact, you actually COULD have someone call you stupid for it but you can consciously look at it and say, my growth is more important than someone trying to make me feel stupid. You don't pretend it isn't there, but you go ahead anyway.

You're just working with what's there without making it this big dramatic battle- and using your intuition/logic to see that it's in your best interest to act a certain way inspite of the emotional impulse.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Well that clears a lot of things up. Especially the throwing up analogy.

One question though - if you do feel anxiety, and you're going against what that is telling you, isn't that "fighting a demon"? Or is the difference in the position you take, ie. "No, I'm not supposed to be feeling this" vs "I'm feeling it but it shouldn't matter, fuck it I'll do it anyway". That's what I'm getting from this.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:12 pm 
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moose35 wrote:
Well that clears a lot of things up. Especially the throwing up analogy.

One question though - if you do feel anxiety, and you're going against what that is telling you, isn't that "fighting a demon"? Or is the difference in the position you take, ie. "No, I'm not supposed to be feeling this" vs "I'm feeling it but it shouldn't matter, fuck it I'll do it anyway". That's what I'm getting from this.
What's the name of the martial art that is all flow - you don't strike back, but you don't put force against force, you just use their own energy to deflect? You're not striking back, but you're not ignoring it either and letting it smack you in the face.

It doesn't have to be so adversarial. Yes, you're warning me about something. Thanks - I hear you, but i'm moving forward anyway and this is for a higher good. These things usually only get louder and stronger because they are being ignored, just acknowledge it - ultimately you are in control.

As an aside, it is fascinating how we all talk about "me" dealing with other parts of "me" that want and do different things without finding it weird or schizophrenic. It's all us - we are just fragmented.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:02 pm 
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A neat little trick I play on myself when welcoming and allowing emotions is this:

"This is exactly what I should be feeling." and "This is exactly what I should be thinking."

I say that before I feel and welcome the feelings. It works great for me, because I have tons of resistance that is just instinctual by now in resisting what I feel, since I hold this idea that I shouldn't feel that.

e.g. When anxiety hits me, or I feel nervous when talking to someone I deem I should not be nervous of. This hidden script plays out and I find myself allowing the emotions with a very tense energy, because the purpose is really not to feel them fully, but rather get rid of them, because I shouldn't be feeling that way.

Why shouldn't you be feeling any other way than how you feel in this moment? In my case I have these scripts of uncomfortable emotions being bad or weak, or whatever you want to call them, but I certainly as fuck don't want to experience them. So I fight them, even when I am trying to allow and welcome them.

This is the main reason why I could never get into Sedona Method and all the other releasing mainstream techniques. Because I got so frustrated of trying to get rid of emotions that I was feeling. The purging did not feel like I was truly accepting. I know for a fact that I did most of these techniques wrong, but they just weren't my cup of tea anyway.

This plays on at such a subtle level that if I don't remind myself of it, I find that I very frequently allow my emotions as a means of wanting to get rid of them or feel different about it.

Like Flow has said, the point is to allow and accept those emotions. This is one path for complete acceptance of self.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:33 pm 
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This is eye opening and I can definitely see the resistance now. That, coupled with roark's posts about taking off your mask/being defenseless, I think I'm starting to see where my path leads now.

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Take it easy, man. But take it.


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