Natural Freedom

There have been a few good threads about indifference recently, with some very insightful replies, which has gotten me thinking a lot about it. Then, Flow83 pointed me to some good videos exploring it further over at the Balls Project, which further expanded my view on the subject.

The threads here that I was referring to are:
Mine (Indifference, red pill, or ?): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2703
Roark's (After The Red Pill): viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2727
and Moose35's (I don't even know who I am anymore): viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2719

So, here's some of my insights:

The three of us seem to have gone through similar experiences where we become indifferent/apathetic to interactions with women. I'm going to call this Indifference 1.0. Here's my definition:

Indifference 1.0: A lack of investment in the outcome of an interaction (or a potential interaction) with a girl due to apathy.

For Roark, Moose, and I, the apathy seems to be what came out of negative feelings that surrounded the process of swallowing the red pill and starting to wake up to the reality of the social matrix.

I call this indifference caused by apathy rather than just apathy because from a behavioral standpoint it does look like indifference. In my thread I talked about some girls at the gym, and my lack of action to talk to them was due to apathy, but if they had talked to me, and continued pushing the interaction with me further and further despite my apathy, I would have let it continue and probably would have even helped move the interaction along, but I would have been totally indifferent to the results.

As a side note, I also see the apathy itself as an indication of still not having fully accepted the truth (ie, still feeling the effects of the red pill). If I were to fully fully accept the truth of the world, then I wouldn't feel down/depressed/disappointed about it, which is what caused my apathy, so therefore I must still not fully accept the nature of the way things are.

This is where some of the words of GP Walsh from the Balls Project really helped me:
And also from GP Walsh:
With those in mind, here's what seems to me to be the next step (which I'm going to call Indifference 2.0):

Indifference 2.0: Truly and fully accepting everything for the way it is, and therefore not being attached to any one particular outcome, because all outcomes are accepted, even the ones that cause pain/disappointment/other negative emotions.

To me, this second definition allows for some leeway to hope that an interaction can turn out well, to hope that a girl can live up to my standards, to hope that a girl can be an x-factor, etc. Now it does not allow getting attached to that idea of course, but it does allowing a curiosity to see if one of those positive outcomes might be the case.

Like GP Walsh says "Its about being indifferent to my inner pain about not getting the results I wanted, and letting that pain be there." If you have curiosity about seeing if a girl is an x-factor, and then she's not, there's going to be a pang of disappointment, because you wanted her to be, otherwise you wouldn't have even given her a chance. That might seem on the surface to not be indifference, but as long as you are ok with the pain of disappointment and you can let it go, then I think that can be part of being indifferent.

So then the question becomes how do you move from Indifference 1.0 to Indifference 2.0? To me this seems like it can't just be a purely conscious process, but instead has to be part of a process that incorporates both conscious and sub-conscious minds. For me it has been pretty easy to get the conscious understanding of all this stuff, but the hard part is the subconscious part, since you can't force that.

What I've been doing is laid out in this post: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2719#p26058

The Just Allow It course has really been excellent so far. I'm still less than a quarter of the way through it, but I feel like its really helped me quite a lot so far.

So, with that all said, anyone have any insights/reflections/thoughts?

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho

This is also a good old post you should read, specially Midnight post.

http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=72

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GMST

Yes, total apathy is for many of us the only framework we have for "indifference" and it is easy to incorrectly associate the two things.

Obviously, you have preferences, and as a grown man, you will have things you 'care' about -- whatever your passion/career is you will desire to do it well, if you are helping someone 1-1, you will "want" to help them, you'd prefer the girl jump on you than tell you to f-off. You will still do things to improve yourself. If something doesn't go the way you prefer, there will be a certain obvious reaction in the system.

However when you don't define yourself around it, when your self worth is not dependent on it, when you know deep down at the core that this is not who you really are, then there is no suffering behind it. OK, that didn't happen. Maybe there is something I can do to improve my skillset so that next time I can perform this task better, etc.

You in fact become far more productive and more focused on what actually matters and can improve with increasing objectivity, because you are doing it out of CHOICE and the art of it, the growth of it, and not to fill some hole, to look cool, etc.

How much fun and how rich would your human interactions be in your life if you "truly couldn't give the slightest shit" about all of your friends? If one of them kills themselves tomorrow are you supposed to be "well whatever man. I've got 3 girls that want to bang me" - it's a ridiculous notion, sometimes you have to look at extreme examples like that because they are the logical conclusion of a misunderstood premise. You will allow whatever comes up to be there and have access to a bigger perspective and go about your life without wallowing in apathy.
This is an illusion.

It implies that there is some hidden place where stuff is stored that you CANT access, an invisible monster that just stops progress.

Something comes up that you have a programmed response to, then you feel that response - consciously.

If you were to sit down and dig into it with questioning and work, all of the associations and patterns and feelings would arise - consciously.

It's either literally NOT there in a particular moment because the circumstance that you have a programmed reaction to is not present, or you are choosing NOT to look at it.

Ever hear that whole bit about how the nervous system reacts to a picture in the mind exactly the same way as it does to the real thing?

There's your window into being able to work on what triggers you.

The more you get used to allowing everything to be there as it is, even the stuff you have been repressing deep down because it's way too painful, the more "indifferent" you get to looking at that programming and realizing you might not like all of it (but increasing understanding that it doesn't mean you are broken and in fact was installed for a positive reason) you will see all of it.

The main thing about 'letting stuff go' is there are about 10 million things that you think are just the way life works, the way reality is so they don't even be considered by the system something that is actually just an idea. You need to see this first for it to become malleable. Usually what we do is just replace them with some other concept that we think is the truth, you think you are all talking about the same thing when you say red-pill blue pill but all of you have millions of your own associations about what that means, what is true and you'd best not make any assumptions.

Sub-conscious was the greatest marketing thing ever developed. It implies there is something you literally cannot get to that only some bullshit brainwaves can touch. There is a whole series of videos on this i will send you.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

I am also interested in this. Can you hook me up if you get a chance?

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"The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him."

Me wants to know this, if you can PM me that videos I would be glad.

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GMST

I'd appreciate getting a link for those videos as well. Thanks

My apologies guys, I should have just mentioned it to him in PM but I was just in that typing zone. The videos I am talking about are a series of videos / exercises on the balls project called 'there is no subconscious mind' but are only viewable from there, and he said in the thread he's over there. I think those series of videos are going to be made public at some point so I will post, or if an admin wants they can delete these mentions of it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

we all want them !!

edit: oh ok

This guy clears up a little bit:

http://io9.com/5868163/the-unconscious- ... se-or-what

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GMST

For all practical purposes the main thing to take away is - be open to the idea that there is nothing you can't explore in yourself, consciously, that is stored in some magic box somewhere that you do not have access to. You are the conscious entity here.

There is of course all sorts of stuff that *points* to the idea of there must be some subconscious thing but no proof, nor will there ever be, that it is an actual 'thing' - you only see the arising of behaviors or fears / patterns etc that seem to come on autopilot, but they are reactions to stimuli. These reactions can be explored and triggered consciously.

It is true that there are protective mechanisms that will distract / prevent from looking at certain stuff that you don't want to look at but again this is all happening consciously, including the resistance, as you get better at feeling this stuff, and become increasingly courageous and self honest to look at what is really happening and what you are really avoiding (and the ways you are avoiding it) -- none of it is coming from some magic black box that only subliminal messages or whatever can speak to.

Accept your role as the master and the one who can make the so called unconscious conscious by choice

Also - remember that this is not to discount all the phenomenon and programming that happens and can slip by you, etc. etc. -- this is on the idea that it is coming from and built around a THING called "the subconscious mind" that must be tweaked. It's not just symantecs it puts you in the drivers seat vs being at the mercy of some actual thing.

When you get into where it is 'stored' that you have memory and what was influenced etc, what picked out the numbers you can get very deep, and in those cases it is a bit of the other direction and over-simplifying / avoiding by saying 'oh well it's just in your unconscious mind.' It is all conscious you just identify with a very small part of your cognitive mind and call that 'your consciousness' is how i would say it.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Oh the subconscious is real...and it's not that it's impossible to access...it's just unpleasant (in most cases) and difficult to access. It's also where repressed memories are stored. It is very real indeed...but it's funny to watch how some of you guys will still jump at the chance to try some Hooey that might make your journey a little bit shorter and easier.

You get out of it what you put into it...if you're gonna half ass it then you will always only have half ass results...but hey, it's not affecting my life so have fun.

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

The memory is not stored like a piece of data.

The programming is there, the decision you made around it like "if i do xyz, bad things happen." If you walk right into it, which is shitty and requires discipline like you said, you will get to it. The "memories" will be generated in that moment and are symbolic representations of what you decided was real and true, you'll see a picture of your mom saying some shit to you when you were three or whatever. That picture is being generated by you RIGHT NOW, for you to deal with it, you are not opening up a hard drive and pulling up a video recording of a memory that is 100% the exact visual thing you saw. Even your memory of this morning is not going to be exactly the same, you are pulling up a conscious representation of what you took from that moment and you are generating it right now.

We say "i went into my subconscious" and there is no "place" you went to - there is something you decided was true / real etc and by exploring that you generate the images / instances you associated with it. Everything including 'memory' is generated now.

That's why when you truly let some shit go, it truly doesn't operate in you anymore -- it was being re-generated by you over and over thinking it's solid.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Really? So you're saying that when you need to recall an important date or bank routing number or remember someone's birthday or face...those are all just generated on the fly? Interesting.

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

If you sit down and work with your bullshit directly, you will see it - it will come up for you to face.

You will also see all sorts of images and "memories" that literally did not and could not have happened to you for "real" because they are all just energetic representations of your programming.

No real need to look for short cuts or mysticism - if you are willing to look at what is unpleasant and stay with it you'll see everything that is going on with you.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Heh well speaking about the 'traumatic' stuff for example, we get the imprint of the thing.. our emotional representation of it, all sorts of weird pictures etc will come up and we are exploring the energy of it and symbols etc we associate with it, would be my interpretation of it. Speaking really to the 'it's subconscious so i can't look at it' - sure you can, if you are willing, really all just about trying to knock out that excuse for any dude to use as a reason to not go to the depth of ones own bullshit or say why something doesn't work for them.

I'm no expert but i'm sure the cognitive mind can store all that info! But, even if I tell you to picture your mothers face - is that a visual snap shot of an 'actual' event that is a 100% accurate photo of what you saw, or do you see a sort of amorphous, life like representation of what you associate as your mom?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Ummm...I get that you're passionate and all...but you DO know who you're currently addressing, right?

Trust me, I don't need any instruction in this area.

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EVERYTHING in life is conditional...EVERYTHING.

Pimposophy Revisited is now finally available on Amazon in all territories!

In other words we obviously have a mind that can store data / info in the relative sense.

I just don't believe from all experience and evidence that the part that says "I'm a piece of shit" or "I don't deserve this" is at ALL the same mechanism as what stores a bank number.

That is a programmed response that is not stored in the 'sub conscious mind' but can be examined and it's triggers can be examine.

It may pull all sorts of 'stored data' and facts but the bullshit around what people call 'sub conscious beliefs' ie "I don't deserve women" is not just like a little text file, but an inference and programmed response to what we think that shit MEANS.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Totally NOT addressed at you - this has basically been the M.O of everything you've posted here.

I published the first post then wrote the second, did not even see your reply until later which i did w/ the quote, it just appears underneath so it looks like it is a response to you, i gues.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4

Can some admin can create a new thread, this indifference one derailed a bit.

The Subconsious.

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GMST

Ha ha yes, sorry.

I don't mean to sound like I am super knowledgeable about how the brain works or anything. Just trying to best summarize what was demonstrated about this idea of subconscious most specifically how it is used more self-help arena.

Particular the comments one will find like "well I think I'm a rock star but my subconscious doesn't so that's why I have a problem." Everything around that can be explored and happens quite consciously.

I believe the fears, the reason why some pieces of information would be repressed whereas others are free to pop up, has more to do with the nervous system protecting you because of associations you have made rather than a black box called the subconscious mind. As those fears and such are walked right into and faced directly things become quite conscious. They were there but you don't want to see them and the system retreats. You take the drivers seat through diligence. I am sure that The Kidd and others here have driven that aspect of things home many times !

So there is the memory and mind and all that which must be insanely complex is there and does its thing. Stores data makes connections. but you run from certain territory with a behavioral response similar to that which learns not to touch a stove again or blinks. This is a nervous system response vs cognitive thought oh time to blink. So to retrain you hit the push ups! and keep going there. That would be the best way I could summarize it I think.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXz8xMaJi4