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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:57 pm 
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(I am discussing this with Peregrinus, so I thought a thread would be relavent as well)

This is PRIORITY NUMBER 1 on my agenda.

Low self-esteem and low self-worth is something I have dealt with since grade school. Or, haven't really DEALT with it, than rather feel it as ingrained in who I was. Now, that I'm grasping the power we have to change our lives and mixed with being tired of the rewards that come with low self-esteem I'm ready to flush this shit down the toilet and live a more EMPOWERING LIFE!

I have a question for you brothas on this topic:

When dealing with your own low self-esteem/self-worth issues is it best, in your opinion, to tackle the task on your own, or with the help of external resources (books, etc)?

I remember asking TheKidd about his game and its creation, and what he said was that back then he had nothing more than his own reasoning and Iceberg's book. There was no RSD, Mystery, etc for TheKidd. As a result his GAME and reasoning is so much more SOLID, because he created it on his OWN. I bring this up, because I'm curious if this is the approach needed to be taken when looking into why I have low self-esteem. I'm sure there's many approaches to deal with these issues, however I want a bit of guidance. Thanks.

p.s. When I asked "or with the help of external resources" I'm referring to self help books on low self-esteem & self-worth, and the exercises they recommend doing.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Question on the vibe of contentment and non-neediness? Kidd's posts

More B.S. from Rion Williams Read the Kidd's posts both on page 1 and 2

This thread too : Less is More quotes

Probably more, but I'm in the middle on Dexter, so keep it up.

Questions to ponder :

Why do you think you have to do something to be High Self Esteem ? (when you were a teenager, did you have Self-esteem issues ? GO BACK ! When you were a child, did you have Self-esteem issues ? GO BACK ! When you were a baby, did you have Self-esteem issues ? That's what I thought ...
WHAT CHANGED SINCE THEN ?)

You can derive your self-esteem by your possessions, your attractiveness, the fact you fucked +500 girls ..., is IT self-esteem ? -> When will you be satisfied ?

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I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration. - Nikola Tesla


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Your low self-esteem stems from somewhere. It was reinforced throughout your life and it's meant to protect you and do you good. The only way to stop yourself from protecting/guarding your true self is to realize that the act of sheltering your thoughts is no longer needed.

The catch is, it's not something you simply say "Oh yeah, cool, I don't need to act like I have low self-worth. It's not needed anymore, so see 'ya." It's rooted in your subconscious. Find out why you're guarding yourself, see what the real issue is, and adress that. Your LSE is simply a symptom of a much bigger and simpler problem. Find it with inner work. Dig deeper than this.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:12 pm 
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I'm also having problems with this.. I can't see when I stand in anything, I underestimate myself, sometimes I overestimate myself.

I don't really think self help books would any good, since they really don't in anything else imo, moose's solution looks more promising


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:16 pm 
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This is something I struggle with too man. I got bullied a lot in school.

We don't have to go from square one though Kidd!! laid out a lot of it for us already. It's the implication of it that proves challenging. Definitely keep experimenting so you have your own spin on things...what works for you.

Very few books are even worth considering in the respect you are talking about. King Warrior Lover by Moore and Gillette (recommended by Sniper :mrgreen:) is pretty good. I'd start there, it's all about Jungian archtypes etc.

EDIT: Numbers and Science come very easy to me, people do not. It's something I struggle to understand

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"The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Morpheus wrote:
EDIT: Numbers and Science come very easy to me, people do not. It's something I struggle to understand
In what way are you different than those people ?
Surely if you can understand why YOU act a certain way, you can understand why OTHERS act their way.

Maybe when you STOP TRYING to understand them you will.
fufe wrote:
I'm also having problems with this.. I can't see when I stand in anything, I underestimate myself, sometimes I overestimate myself.
What if you stop estimating yourself ?
Whatever happened happened, whatever has to happen will happen, because you were what you were and will be what you will be.

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I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration. - Nikola Tesla


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:13 pm 
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GoldenBoy wrote:
In what way are you different than those people ?
Surely if you can understand why YOU act a certain way, you can understand why OTHERS act their way.

Many ways, we all have life experiences that determine how we will act. I know why I act in certain ways, most of the time.
GoldenBoy wrote:
Maybe when you STOP TRYING to understand them you will.
That doesn't make sense. It's like saying ok I have this course I'm struggling with so if I don't try I'll understand.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:47 pm 
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@GoldenBoy
GoldenBoy wrote:
You can derive your self-esteem by your possessions, your attractiveness, the fact you fucked +500 girls ..., is IT self-esteem ? -> When will you be satisfied ?
What you speak of makes it sounds like your saying self-esteem is nothing more than a mirage of the ego. Am I in the stadium with that statement? If that's the case then what Moose was writing of speaks larger volume.

@Moose

I understand and don't understand at the same time what you write about. Off the top of my head the only way that my LSE protected me and still protects me is that it would lessen PAIN from the external world by already having low value and expectations of myself. I'm not sure if I've ever been aware of protecting/guarding myself. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by that?

@Morpheus

I was bullied and picked on in school as well. Logically though it makes no sense in my eyes for me to still be effected by those things being they where X years ago. That is what baffles me; logically it sounds goofy to have LSE, but I still have it & feel it :roll:

As for the book. It seems interesting and I may pick it up later, but I'm doing my best to stay clear from self-help books and what not.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:10 am 
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It's not a self help book. It's about Jungian psychology which is based on how mythology explains fundamental aspects of our personality like the shadow for example

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"The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him."


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:21 am 
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Quote:
I was bullied and picked on in school as well. Logically though it makes no sense in my eyes for me to still be effected by those things being they where X years ago. That is what baffles me; logically it sounds goofy to have LSE, but I still have it & feel it
Pondering your post, I realized I no longer struggle with this like I used to

The answer for me came right from this board. Use logic to overcome emotion, and be your own best friend.

The feelings of low self esteem and low self worth are just that - feelings, aka emotions. However they first got there who knows, but some events for some reason trigger these. It helps if you can dig in and figure out what this is but not necessary to discover the source right at this moment.

I started to observe when these feelings would arise. I would then observe them and separate myself from them, use logical self talk to disprove why these feelings were irrational emotions, as if I was listening to my best friend vent of feeling worthless: essentially being my own best friend.

Allowing and observing the emotions, while at the same time be my own best friend using logic to diffuse them. Literally a conversation with myself would go on in my head. (and more often than not the LOGIC that I use to diffuse the emotions :arrow: comes straight from this board)

Edit: I still do this and have been for a while, whenever any negative emotion or feeling pops up


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:45 am 
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Morpheus : You said it yourself, you act a certain way because of your upbringing, so do others to an extent.

Before seeing the differences, see the common denominators of all behaviour.

Survival and reproduction.

Now see how upbringing affect the ways people act to 'achieve' these.

From the guy who lowers his head on the telephone (in your recent history if I recall) to EVERY behaviour, it is linked to these two aspects, and how their upbringings influence people to achieve those (well my father taught me to be nice to women so that I could have them, so the opposite and reverse must be true : If someone acts a certain way, we can deduce how he was educated, what he believes).

I'm not different from others, maybe you are, but I know my beliefs influence my actions (or non actions), and my beliefs were 'created' / reinforced / pushed onto me by my parents, school, comrades, all those I gave credit (firstly because I had to to survive, but now, why do I still listen to other people ?)

If you know WHY you act a certain way, why do you say you struggle to understand others ?
Different beliefs cause different actions.


@TheDude :
Quote:
What you speak of makes it sounds like your saying self-esteem is nothing more than a mirage of the ego. Am I in the stadium with that statement? If that's the case then what Moose was writing of speaks larger volume.
If I have to define what 'self-esteem' is for me, I would say that I stopped trying to define what it is.
I am what (big, skinny, dumb, smart, ...) I am.
What I could change ? I changed. What I couldn't ? I accepted it (because IT IS THE ONLY THING YOU CAN DO).
See Sniper's recollection of relevant posts dealing with 'the problem' (forgot to look for it yesterday)

I agree with moose (even though I don't remember having done this), you simplify (going deeper and deeper to see the root cause) the problem, and see what you can do about it.

What I said is that Self-Esteem is 'something' that nobody can give. (or it wouldn't be self-esteem, it would be esteem of the others, and what others give, others can take away)
Do you agree you're the only one influencing your self-esteem ?
So in your opinion (I don't want answers, just you ask the questions to yourself), why do everyone link their self-esteem on others (things they own, opinions of others, what they have accomplished ...) ?
If you don't link it to something 'tangible' (things you can 'see' (beautiful car outside), 'hear' (compliments of beautiful women), 'taste' (nuf said), 'smell', 'touch'), on what do you link it ?

I realize that me answering may be confusing.
I only have one question :
WHY DO YOU ASK OTHERS HOW TO INCREASE YOUR SELF-ESTEEM ?

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I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration. - Nikola Tesla


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:52 am 
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TheDude wrote:

@Moose

I understand and don't understand at the same time what you write about. Off the top of my head the only way that my LSE protected me and still protects me is that it would lessen PAIN from the external world by already having low value and expectations of myself. I'm not sure if I've ever been aware of protecting/guarding myself. Could you elaborate more on what you mean by that?
LSE doesn't have anything to do with not dissapointing yourself or setting low expectations. You simply value yourself less than you value other people, playing the role of beta male animals in nature. They can't offend/anger their tribe or pack, and saying or doing what's on their mind would mean expulsion from the pack, which in their case, is death.

If you relate that to yourself, you see that LSE is simply being in a state where other's acceptance and opinions of you are more important than expressing yourself freely. Flow83 has mentioned that this is a system meant to protect and shield you from harm. Take your parents for example - it was very, very important for you to have their approval when you were young.

You have to be aware of when you're guarding yourself and why. Then dig deeper and deeper.

Guarding yourself isn't the only time you strive to keep others happy either. Notice times when you do/don't do or say something next to people to keep them happy. Notice where this energy comes from.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:05 pm 
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It can only be dealt with by you - but there are tools and teachers that can give assistance. Even if you do a "technique" it is all you, it just provides the space for you to get out of your own way, or adopt a different perspective that lets you go deeper.

Many techniques market that it is the technique that does the work. This appeals to our laziness. It's just like a hammer, it doesn't do anything by itself, but lets you leverage your own force better.

When I work with others, in particular a mentor of mine, it shakes me down to the very core and goes into territory that I couldn't on my own, because I couldn't even see it. However he is the first to emphasize the idea that it's all you, you just get guidance or tools like we humans do for literally everything in life.. from that perspective it's not really "do it on my own OR use resources." They are not one or the other.. any more than you would use different tools and get other sets of hands or expertise if you were building your own house.

Only thing I'll throw out for now to explore with self-esteem/worth is the idea that it is a FEELING, and a habitual pattern in the system that needs to be retrained. The doorway is in the feeling itself. It literally has nothing to do with external results. This seems hard to believe at first but you need only to look to billionaires and famous people who still feel this feeling as deeply if not more deeply than anyone else who deals with it. There are deeply depressed/unworthy feeling CEOs and celebs who go to dominatrix' and there are happy peaceful ones. Same as there are depressed / happy versions of any class.Banging women, getting drunk, having tons of money are like a pill that distract from the feeling, they do NOT reprogram the system.

Only you can do that - and you will have to move right into that core of that feeling which every part of your system will be screaming at you not to do. There is a reason why almost every archetypal story from every culture involves going through some type of hell and coming out the other side better. There's no story of the hero reading a book, saying affirmations and discovering all his power as a man.

There is nothing wrong with all the material goods just enjoy them for what they can give you and don't expect them to cure what they can't. That expectation is the lifeblood of consumerism/the matrix etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:24 pm 
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For the record, I am happy to share the process I use and have been tweaking with my teacher.. sort of a condensed version of processes/questions that guys have been giving good feedback on. Been getting humbling responses from some guys on my own neck of the digital woods. I do it on skype.

I just ask that you don't share it. Tweaking it and in time will be putting it out (for free), probably in video and audio, but it is still evolving a bit as new things or subtle adjustments tend to come out with each session. If you have any interest in that shoot me a PM.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:42 pm 
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@StephenP

Note taken on: using logic to shine light on negative emotions. :geek: '

@GoldenBoy
Quote:
WHY DO YOU ASK OTHERS HOW TO INCREASE YOUR SELF-ESTEEM ?
I didn't ask others how to increase my self-esteem. I asked is it more beneficial to work on and uncover self-esteem with external resources (books/audio)?

Good questions GB! I will be asking those to myself later in the day.

@Moose
Quote:
They can't offend/anger their tribe or pack, and saying or doing what's on their mind would mean expulsion from the pack, which in their case, is death.
Moose I wrote a note of this same exact thing, in different words, last night when I had some more insight while rewatching The Matrix.

I do value others more than I value myself. And what your saying about "expulsion from the pack" is dead on to what I couldn't put into words thoroughly last night... I'm extra friendly to others, more than I am to myself, because of a fear of being on the outside or being disapproved of[.b] This is so, because I derive self-worth externally. From others appraisal of me (friends, family, strangers).[/b] What I just wrote was HUGE for me!!!!!! I wasn't aware of that before..."I feel lowly of myself, and I look for others approval to feel better about myself". Hello! Why not feel highly of myself firstly, then I no longer need to rely on the approval of others!!!! :lol: :shock: :o
Quote:
You have to be aware of when you're guarding yourself and why. Then dig deeper and deeper.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. :geek:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:11 pm 
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moose35 wrote:
You have to be aware of when you're guarding yourself and why. Then dig deeper and deeper.

Guarding yourself isn't the only time you strive to keep others happy either. Notice times when you do/don't do or say something next to people to keep them happy. Notice where this energy comes from.
:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:32 am 
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I absolutely can recommend shadow work - I took an approach writing about my negative traits, I listed things I see a lot in people since in jungian psychology it means that I'm supressing that thing myself, etc.. It's been very enlightening for me personally


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:21 am 
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moose35 wrote:
Your low self-esteem stems from somewhere.
"Sometimes we might like to congratulate ourselves for fortuitous events,
but in truth we don’t really know where they came from."

Who ´needs´ credits for it. I care not what happens to my self-esteem
or happiness, thus I am free.

"..................."

...besides, in humbleness, I am better than anyone.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:15 am 
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Jared wrote:
Who ´needs´ credits for it. I care not what happens to my self-esteem
or happiness, thus I am free.
Very interesting! :!:

Edit:...

From when did we begin to judge our self-worth from the outside. When did we come to believe what Heather thinks of me is more important than what I think of myself. When did we toss our own thoughts under a truck.

Rereading this article again and realizing how dumb it is to base your value outside yourself. A poor man's game.

Society raises us to be interdependent on one another. Moving us like cattle. They practically tell you your self-esteem is linked to your reviews from others with much of the stuff they spray around the world. Why do so many feel so alienated?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:19 pm 
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Quote:
When did we come to believe what Heather thinks of me is more important than what I think of myself.
Because when you were too young to do anything about it, what Mom or teacher or whomever else thought of you determined whether or not you got the basic things you need to live, or were "allowed" to do anything that made you happy.

You literally WERE completely dependent on others for your survival.

There is a reason boys went through brutal male initiations in essentially all tribes. It's in the animal kingdom everywhere, the animal is completely dependent on mom and dad and then they reject them, on your own, even if it kills you (and it often does) -- the mentality of the small boy does NOT just go away because you turn 16.

Looking to others for approval ie survival was a necessary ingrained habit that, since most of us did not go through an ordeal that forced us to grow the fuck up, you need your own determination to put yourself through what you need to in order to grow up/wake up. If you were to ask in detail about those who seem to have achieved that total independence you will find that they went through some modern society version of the "hero's journey" that made them become self-reliant, it's just not always as glamorous of a story.

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