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 Post subject: Confusion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:13 pm 
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After trying to acquire some sort of help or program to allow me to be myself, I read Kidd's comment about Dumbo realizing he could fly without the feather and decided to do some inner work on my own. So I took out my ammo and faced my demons deep in my brain head on, which was a really weird and fulfilling experience. I have some thoughts/questions that arose out of it and I'd like to post them here. Any help/critique would be much appreciated. Also thanks to peregrinus, whose questions pushed me to the path of deeper introspection.

1.) I identified my main problem. When I went into my subconscious, I felt this really panicky/twitchy feeling when I considered other's opinions of me. I was terrified at the thought of other people disaproving of me, even going through situations in the past. Growing up, the idea that I was put on this planet to satisfy the whims other people was hammered into my head. Mostly by my parents, but I got a lot of feedback that gave my mind evidence that this was the right path to take. I derived my value from it and almost completely shut down my own sense of self-worth. When people liked me and responded to me, I took that as a sign that I was doing the right things to impress them and that all was right in the world. When I was ignored or looked down upon (which was probably because I was trying so hard), I felt terrible. I have been myself extremely rarely throughout my life, always catering to the wishes of other people. Always thinking about what the right thing to say was, paralyzing myself in the process. I shut out my own personality and being out because I thought it would be innapropriate and rude of me to be myself and enjoy myself, rather than having my ego stroked by other people. This wasn't something that I was doing consciously - I just realized this after a quite long period of inner work. It was as revolting to me as it was eye-opening.

I derived meaning from people's opinions of me. And not just women. A lot of people have written that they have no problem interacting with their friends - I always felt nervous, even around my closest friends. The pressure of not having them disapprove of me was always there. I needed to be rid of this before I could even move on to women. It's like I'm just starting to wake up.

2.) In the process of shutting myself out, I hated myself. It sounds funny when I type it, but I always hated myself for shutting out my awesomeness. I never allowed myself to be me. Like I knew that I was a totally cool person but I couldn't bring that out, because people might not like it, and even the slightest sign of disapproval would push my true self out. So my ego trying to protect me led to me hating myself for shutting myself out, which led to an even lower level of self-confidence and self-love, so I would try even harder to impress other people, which would repeat the cycle over and over again.


I have now distanced myself from this. It's like I've split it away from my identity and no longer consider it to be a part of me. I accept that it was there, but it was never really who I was and I really want to move on and stop giving other people's real/my made up opinions of me any sort of meaning. Sometimes though, I still care about other people's opinions and let it affect me emotionally. I know why this happens, but it's like I can distance myself from this bad mindset and "unplug" myself at times, while falling back into the matrix and into my old habits sometimes, which I have no idea why this happens. I've realized why the mindset I had was wrong, but it still persists at times.


So I'm still trying to further myself on the path to inner peace and not giving a fuck about what people think of me, but I still can't do that. It gets frustrating at times because I think I've passed this problem and am ready to move on to other layers, but it's still there at times.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:47 pm 
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That's a great post. Enjoyable read :D

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:22 pm 
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moose35 wrote:
So I'm still 1: trying to further myself on the path to inner peace and not giving a fuck about what people think of me, 1: but I still can't do that. It gets frustrating at times because I think I've passed this problem and am ready to 2: move on to other layers, but it's still there 3: at times.
Three points :
1. "Do or do not, there is no try". Of course you can't do that, Inner peace is ALWAYS there, you can't have it because you try having it (see my signature).

2. There are no other layers, except the one you accept (if the UNconscious really exist, you would have no way of being conscious of it, no ? So if it's not UNconscious per se, it's because YOU create it by fear of looking at it, letting it express itself).
Honestly you say : You think you have gotten rid of this problem so you create another one to try to getting rid of this one too. When will this stop ? YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM, YOU'RE FINE (see Star's post), THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU.

3. Don't put your attention on your 'relapses', maybe it just takes time to adjust to this new behaviour.

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No matter HOW smart you think you ARE, there will ALWAYS be somebody who is smarter than you. So never underestimate people.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Can relate to this post in many ways.

Goldenboy touches on key points here. We do create our own problems for ourselves. I've recently been asking myself: why do I make like difficult for myself? I should get the response mailed to me in a few days :lol: .

I've also dug into the thought that I might have engulfed myself so heavily with self help that I have created the belief that I am a broken piece that needs fixing. Not to hard to believe. Star's thread is a simple Treasure too.

I could be wrong, but you may thing success happens over night (much like myself). However, there's saying that resonates: Things worthwhile happen over time. While illusions come fast and are fleeting.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:51 pm 
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TheDude wrote:
Can relate to this post in many ways.

Goldenboy touches on key points here. We do create our own problems for ourselves. I've recently been asking myself: why do I make like difficult for myself? I should get the response mailed to me in a few days :lol: .

I've also dug into the thought that I might have engulfed myself so heavily with self help that I have created the belief that I am a broken piece that needs fixing. Not to hard to believe. Star's thread is a simple Treasure too.

I could be wrong, but you may thing success happens over night (much like myself). However, there's saying that resonates: Things worthwhile happen over time. While illusions come fast and are fleeting.
:lol: :lol:

Only fucking laughter remains!

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:38 am 
I watched a documentary a while back (I can't remember the name of it though) where in one part they discussed people developing their personalities after years of training themselves unconsciously. Basically how this is able to stay consistent is the brain remembers how to give you your thoughts and emotions because of all the years you've practiced doing it. You created a pattern in your brain and it follows this pattern unless you do become aware of it and change it. This wasn't a philosophy either, this was actual scientific studies that were done on the human brain which is pretty wild. But we can break that pattern and most likely we already have since we're all in here discussing this type of stuff. Otherwise we would all still be plugged in and totally ignorant to this like mostly everyone else in the world.

The way that I do it is when I do have a thought come up that is negative I just become aware and literally stop it in its tracks, most of the time by just becoming present. I try not to get frustrated over it and just accept it and let it go. At least you know what the truth is now and in my opinion when someone knows the truth then they are out of the matrix, it's just that you have that pattern in your brain that keeps going back to the old way of being sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Thanks for the comments guys. Yeah, I'm starting to realize that it's a process and that it won't happen overnight. Changing my behavior so drasticaly will take time. Sometimes the feeling of helplessness, that achieving this is impossible and too much to handle, that I was simply hardwired this way gets to me. I know it's not true, but seeing that only I have the power and ability to change and yet haven't been able to let go is confusing and downright frustrating at times. It's not even that I want to be this unattached dude so I can get chicks, I just want to find inner peace. I know the path I have to take, but sometimes, I'm having a hard time walking along it. It's probably normal though.

And Dude, totally agree with you. I've been trying to improve myself for so long that I think I'm this weird incomplete person. Gotta keep the perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:02 pm 
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This is why being able to observe yourself is a key skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:46 pm 
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At a very root level, deeper than the most easily observable thoughts, is a system in place whose sole purpose is survival.

As far as it is concerned what it has created WORKS because you're not DEAD.

This is so important to realize-- this part of you does not give a shit about your 'happiness' or 'life goals' or 'being indifferent.'

If you go in to rock the system which has worked for it for all this time, it meets with resistance.

As my teacher says every conflict we experience is the conflict between safety and freedom. It's always the core reason that in 99.9% of cases, you don't just say "ok well let's be carefree" or "let's change this" and then you just do. No matter how much better your logical mind thinks the change is going to help you, change = altering something that has worked in keeping you alive and a functional, surviving human being who can pass on the genes.

One part just wants to be safe and survive - the other part wants to actually express itself in the world. That's every inner conflict you have. Every sense of caring what people think etc. can be traced into "if they think badly of me then... then.. then.. [something that comes down to you being safe/surviving]"

Imprints are made when you are young that said doing x behavior = y result of disapproval from parents/caregivers = bad for survival. That's why it raises it's hand and says "oh no you DONT motherfucker" if you start to do something in the direction that goes against one of these.

That's why this work involves conscious looking at everything and allowing yourself to experience this resistance etc. until you begin to see that all of this is something that occurs WITHIN you and is not all of you, in which case you get to be the master of it. In most cases master of it means we feel the resistance and we do it anyway - we don't wipe it out with the wave of the hand... hence the constant appeal of subliminals and all that stuff that even when you know better can be very seductive because "maybe i wont have to go into this territory and it will just do it for me."

It's training like everything else. You fall and get up over and over until you stop falling down, then you can do the thing, then you start to express yourself. Inner work has the same curve.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
At a very root level, deeper than the most easily observable thoughts, is a system in place whose sole purpose is survival.

As far as it is concerned what it has created WORKS because you're not DEAD.

This is so important to realize-- this part of you does not give a shit about your 'happiness' or 'life goals' or 'being indifferent.'

If you go in to rock the system which has worked for it for all this time, it meets with resistance.

As my teacher says every conflict we experience is the conflict between safety and freedom. It's always the core reason that in 99.9% of cases, you don't just say "ok well let's be carefree" or "let's change this" and then you just do. No matter how much better your logical mind thinks the change is going to help you, change = altering something that has worked in keeping you alive and a functional, surviving human being who can pass on the genes.

One part just wants to be safe and survive - the other part wants to actually express itself in the world. That's every inner conflict you have. Every sense of caring what people think etc. can be traced into "if they think badly of me then... then.. then.. [something that comes down to you being safe/surviving]"

Imprints are made when you are young that said doing x behavior = y result of disapproval from parents/caregivers = bad for survival. That's why it raises it's hand and says "oh no you DONT motherfucker" if you start to do something in the direction that goes against one of these.

That's why this work involves conscious looking at everything and allowing yourself to experience this resistance etc. until you begin to see that all of this is something that occurs WITHIN you and is not all of you, in which case you get to be the master of it. In most cases master of it means we feel the resistance and we do it anyway - we don't wipe it out with the wave of the hand... hence the constant appeal of subliminals and all that stuff that even when you know better can be very seductive because "maybe i wont have to go into this territory and it will just do it for me."

It's training like everything else. You fall and get up over and over until you stop falling down, then you can do the thing, then you start to express yourself. Inner work has the same curve.
So you're basically saying that all this resistance and battle comes down to the more primal level of the biological body (the survival biological machine) vs the ever wanting "freedom of the spirit?" (what have you) and the process of "getting rid" (observing and not identify it with the 'chains' that out machine runs automatically).

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Quote:
So you're basically saying that all this resistance and battle comes down to the more primal level of the biological body (the survival biological machine) vs the ever wanting "freedom of the spirit?" (what have you) and the process of "getting rid" (observing and not identify it with the 'chains' that out machine runs automatically).
That's a good way of saying it. There's no other reason for a 'conflict' to be there -- there's no mystical evil force that is trying to keep you down. The good thing about this realization is it lets you cut yourself some slack. It's not because you are stupid or this evil program is just ruining your life and you just can't break this 'habit,' it's all there to serve a purpose of keeping you safe (logical or not) and you can say thank you but we're moving on.

We turn it into a war when everyone is actually on the same team. Really, what would this thing be there that would be trying to keep you to 'fail' at your goals etc -- just to screw with you? It's because it feels there is a greater payoff for you to not have that thing than to have it which usually comes down to approval/security which even then is rooted in survival. Lots of teachings including Lester Levenson/sedona method stuff fits that as well.

When it's JUST "matrix" stuff like buying shit you don't need, as an example, you can just stop doing it. Every person is unique but you have all experienced the difference between something where you say "oh, i see, this was just some BS" and you just stop, vs. something that is ingrained at this level.

Because a technique or realization will work for one thing, we often think it should work for everything.

These days I would *never* say to someone something like "oh well your fear of women is just [blahblah]" -- "attachment is just blah blah." You have no idea the depth of what was imprinted to someone and what level of the nervous system is triggered by it or what associations are there.


For one guy it IS just a simple thing that, hell, a youtube video from some pickup guy will fix -- for another his system associates it with a deep trauma. It's irresponsible to put these two people in the same category and assume one is just smarter/better/gets it more than another.. but i never saw that before.

One of the biggest gifts I've ever gotten in my life has been exposure to this teaching/work because it's the shift from going in swinging to knock out all these negative programs like a fighter and to work w/ the system that has actually had, as far as it is concerned, my best interest at heart.

Here's the other big aha for me--

Trying to get rid of it is the red herring in working on yourself. It's part of the reality and you can accept it, integrate it, and let it all work towards you.

People are in wild goose chases for years to 'get rid of' stuff and frankly anymore it just pains me to see it. Not there isn't plenty of stuff (useless beliefs etc) that can be knocked out but it's the idea that all of this is just something to be deleted.

Think of it like this: is there an inner work technique you can do, affirmations, visualizations you can do that will make your nails stop growing? This is even deeper in your system than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Flow83 wrote:
Trying to get rid of it is the red herring in working on yourself. It's part of the reality and you can accept it, integrate it, and let it all work towards you.
Grinus wrote:
I stopped fighting my inner demons, we're on the same side now

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 pm 
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peregrinus wrote:
Flow83 wrote:
Trying to get rid of it is the red herring in working on yourself. It's part of the reality and you can accept it, integrate it, and let it all work towards you.
Grinus wrote:
I stopped fighting my inner demons, we're on the same side now
Dig!!

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Totally agree with the sentiment that it's there for our survival, even though we know at a more logical level that it doesn't really help. What I think I need clarification on is the accepting it and using it to your advantage part. Both you and Grinus wrote about that, and I don't quite understand it.

First thing would be to accept that it's there and isn't going away? Then what? How can I use this constricting feeling around other people (and even around myself, I sometimes sit at home and dwell on why I can't be this or that way) to my advantage? I always thought the goal was to be rid of it. I see that it isn't, but what do I do now?

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:47 pm 
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You learn to allow the conflict to be and be fully present with it, and watch the energy move and begin to trust that it actually does move and heal on it's own the more you learn to let it go (which is letting go of your own agenda with it) - it wants to be heard and acknowledged and not suppressed. If the reaction is "oh that's it?" -- we've been trained since young to do the opposite of this and as it starts getting intense the natural inclination is to move away, stop, or clench up and try to get rid of it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbDCdTYT ... ure=relmfu

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:22 pm 
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following on from Flow83:
Instead of clenching up, moving away etc

Be present with it, feel it, allow it to happen, observe it, relax into it.
Let it really happen fully, release into it.

No thinking, no judging, no anything, experience it fully and completely.

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:32 pm 
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One big thing to remember moose is that attachment to non-attachment is still attachment.

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A wise man once said "I find that a duck's opinion of me is influenced by whether or not I have bread."


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Alright guys, I've been mulling this over all day. Here's how I interpreted you advice, please tell me if I'm right or correct me if I'm headed in the wrong direction.

The point of it all is to give up the illusion of control over anything that's happening outside you, in which lies the path to indifference. You don't want to have anything happen because you don't care what happens, since you know you can't influence it.

To get rid of this clenching controlling feeling of holding on to what's outside of you (at least that's what I'm feeling), controlling your actions, you have to find out why it's there in the first place. Recognize it as something that's there to protect you. It wants to be heard, so you don't judge or try to control/change the emotions, you let them be and see what they want to do. In a way, you're giving up control over something that you can't control (your emotions), which means it doesn't have power over you anymore.
Quote:
One big thing to remember moose is that attachment to non-attachment is still attachment.

This blew my noodle quite a bit. So give up control over anything at all ever happening and just observing and enjoying what you can't control? Is that it?

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:05 am 
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moose35 wrote:
Alright guys, I've been mulling this over all day. Here's how I interpreted you advice, please tell me if I'm right or correct me if I'm headed in the wrong direction.

The point of it all is to give up the illusion of control over anything that's happening outside you, in which lies the path to indifference. You don't want to have anything happen because you don't care what happens, since you know you can't influence it.

To get rid of this clenching controlling feeling of holding on to what's outside of you (at least that's what I'm feeling), controlling your actions, you have to find out why it's there in the first place. Recognize it as something that's there to protect you. It wants to be heard, so you don't judge or try to control/change the emotions, you let them be and see what they want to do. In a way, you're giving up control over something that you can't control (your emotions), which means it doesn't have power over you anymore.
Quote:
One big thing to remember moose is that attachment to non-attachment is still attachment.

This blew my noodle quite a bit. So give up control over anything at all ever happening and just observing and enjoying what you can't control? Is that it?
Conceptually it's on the right track.. you are going into it just to experience and be with it without an agenda. Even 'enjoying' it is an agenda. In the process of the energy moving, healing, change, etc. it can be ugly and your deepest darkest shit can (and in fact needs to at some point) come up and be integrated rather than being suppressed, denied, and projected, which in many ways is human suffering in a nutshell.

Dunno if you saw that video but letting go is not about forcing all those things out or it to happen -- if it's ugly or unpleasant that's the reality and you take your hands off of trying to control/change it and you LET it do what it does because it knows what to do -- water knows where to flow.

One of the hardest things to let go of for us is wanting to know the right way to do it or have the perfect conceptual model.

Remember that even getting the most perfect answer and conceptual model is like getting the best description possible of what riding a bike is like. Or getting a really great, accurate description of what an orange tastes like if you've never had one. No matter what it's about getting on the bike over and over again, which I suggest you just keep doing. There are various, free, meditation/body awareness etc type exercises that deal with this -- the technique itself is just to focus your attention, it's about just being present with it without an agenda which takes training because having an agenda is a trained habit.

You are better served thinking of this like training and the dropping of agenda/thought etc something akin to quitting heroin than just hearing the right way to do it and having it just happen.

It's a double edged sword because in some ways it is great that techniques and teaching that comes from these old traditions is getting out there a little bit (stuff like 'the secret') but they are in such convoluted and often "it's so quick and easy!" versions for marketing purposes that they get diluted or we think inner work is somehow just the right happy thoughts. Quick massive things can and do happen but it's not about that. I really believe people would be better served if they approached these types of undertaking with *at least* the level of seriousness if they were going to become a boxer or something, it's daily practice, training, overcoming resistance/yourself, etc. in the vast vast majority of cases.

Also remember that non-attachment and all the "right" stuff happens with total presence.

Have you ever had an orgasm before? Is your mind 'there' - are you even possibly thinking about attachment or non attachment or if you're 'doing' having an orgasm right? haha. It's one of the closest things to becoming fully present which is one of the main reasons the attachment to sex is strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:16 am 
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Lastly just remember that this shit will usually be confusing and gets more clear the more you do it.

If you were trying to understand how all the muscles worked and your inner ear and balance and all that shit before you stepped on the bike it'd be 10 years before you ever just got on the damn thing and by that point you'd have way too much going on your head to just let your body adjust and ride the damn bike.

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