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Introspection / brainstorm
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Author:  Gonzo [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Introspection / brainstorm
This morning I decided to sit down and do a brainstorm session.

I am a pretty stable, healthy, positive guy. My life is very much in order. I am actually quite happy with my life. I have a house, a car, many friends and many hobby's. I lost my virginity pretty late (at 22) but after that I had a pretty normal sex-life. Regularly girls even fall in love with me.

However when it comes to sex I somehow have this bad feeling attached to it... A real black, jealous feeling. I don't have this feeling all the time, and it is like only part of me has this feeling, another part of me stays happy. But this feeling is still there, deep deep inside of me. I feel it when I talk about sex with friends for example. Yesterday me and a friend were talking with a girl about losing your virginity and I felt it. I most of all feel it when another guy gets a girl that I really liked. I know, I know... I shouldn't consider girls to be my possession, that is probably part of the problem. But the feeling is stil there and I want to get rid of it, or at least make peace with it.

It is probably somehow a pretty natural feeling and I am sure a lot of guys will recognise it. But I want to get it handled because I feel it hinders me.

I will post exactly what I wrote in this brainstorm session. I dug as deep as I could so it might be confrontational. It is also pretty personal to post on a public forum, but discussing it might help me and possibly some other people. So I decided to post it anyway. It's a bit incoherent but that is because it was a brainstorm session. Here it comes:
Quote:
Why do I get this bad feeling when it comes to sex? Or more specifically: missing out on sex?

I am not good enough..... Something wrong with me
Incompetent...... Society/friends blaming me
Left out...... Loser, outsider
Feeling of loss

Blackness...... Alone, loneliness
Aggression
Jealousy
Sadness
Shame

Something stolen from me

Girls losing their innocence
The girl doesn’t love me anymore, doesn’t appreciate me
Girl is being hurt, but she loves it. She shouldn’t love it, she should love me! I am being hurt.
She might get pregnant, is she crazy!

Nervousness, pressure, sick to my stomach.
The world is falling apart.
That's it. Now what? What is the next step I can take? How do I make peace with this feeling?

Peregrinus, I believe this is your department? ;) Also others are welcome to comment on it too, off course.

Thanks in advance!

Gonzo
Author:  Altair [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Hmm I can identify with a lot of this. I've never completely to peace with it though, the best I can do is drag is off to the dungeon where I put the rest of my emotions that don't serve me.

As soon as I get confirmation from the outside world that I am none of those things I'm fine
Author:  Gonzo [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Quote:
I've never completely to peace with it though, the best I can do is drag is off to the dungeon where I put the rest of my emotions that don't serve me.
Yeah, it's the same for me. Those kind of feelings are usually tucked away deeply. I know they don't serve me so I try not to feel them by rationalizing them away (logic instead of emotions). It works, but somehow these feelings are still there and they do come to the surface occasionally.

I did some more thinking today about where these feelings actually come from. I will post about this later.

Gonzo
Author:  Alchemist [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Gonzo wrote:
Yeah, it's the same for me. Those kind of feelings are usually tucked away deeply. I know they don't serve me so I try not to feel them by rationalizing them away (logic instead of emotions). It works, but somehow these feelings are still there and they do come to the surface occasionally.
Trying not to feel them might work against you, you have to face them head on so you can learn how to deal with them if/when they come up again.
Author:  Gonzo [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
OK, noted! I remember you wrote something about this elsewhere, but I can't find it now. You wrote that you should go as deep into the feeling as possible, and it will disappear.
Author:  Alchemist [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Yeah Peregrinus advised to let the feeling happen and fully experience it, then it dissolves, I dunno about it disappearing completely but for me the worst part of it is gone.
Author:  peregrinus [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Gonzo (slightly edited) wrote:
However when it comes to sex I somehow have this bad feeling attached to it... A real black, jealous feeling.

But this feeling is still there, deep deep inside of me.

I feel it when I talk about sex with friends for example. Yesterday me and a friend were talking with a girl about losing your virginity and I felt it.

I most of all feel it when another guy gets a girl that I really liked. I know, I know... I shouldn't consider girls to be my possession, that is probably part of the problem.
As soon as you mentioned jealousy above, I thought about possession.

It may be worth thinking about this:
How would you react if people treated you like a possession?
Would you like it?
Would you enjoy it?
How would it feel?

Why do you see others as possessions?

Do you feel in control or out of control?
Gonzo (slightly edited) wrote:
But the feeling is stil there and I want to get rid of it, or at least make peace with it.
It will be there until you do make peace with it... see what Alchemist has said above, also what I have put at the end.
Gonzo wrote:
I will post exactly what I wrote in this brainstorm session. I dug as deep as I could so it might be confrontational. It is also pretty personal to post on a public forum, but discussing it might help me and possibly some other people. So I decided to post it anyway.
Good for you.. I am sure you have read personal posts of others also on here.
Sometimes it is hard to get beneath the surface unless you show what is there.
Gonzo wrote:
Why do I get this bad feeling when it comes to sex? Or more specifically: missing out on sex?

I am not good enough..... Something wrong with me
Incompetent...... Society/friends blaming me
Left out...... Loser, outsider
Feeling of loss

Blackness...... Alone, loneliness
Aggression
Jealousy
Sadness
Shame

Something stolen from me
There is a lot in the above, my gut tells me it is all related. There is something deeper and common to the above.

Why?

What do you feel was stolen from you? Why 'stolen'?
Gonzo wrote:
Girls losing their innocence
The girl doesn’t love me anymore, doesn’t appreciate me
Girl is being hurt, but she loves it. She shouldn’t love it, she should love me! I am being hurt.
She might get pregnant, is she crazy!

Nervousness, pressure, sick to my stomach.
The world is falling apart.
I am sure a lot of guys can relate to the above.

The contradictory messages in this section really fuck with guys heads.

If you keep running them round your head they will turn it to mush. However there are also some *assumptions* on your part.

A girl's biological reason for existing is to get pregnant and reproduce - how crazy is she now?

Why are they losing their innocence? Are you also losing yours?

She may be being hurt, her emotions are being aroused though.. Is it her emotions or the hurt which she likes?

--
Alchemist wrote:
Yeah Peregrinus advised to let the feeling happen and fully experience it, then it dissolves, I dunno about it disappearing completely but for me the worst part of it is gone.
Indeed I do.

Rather than trying to run away from it, avoid it, or fight it head on:
Let the feeling wash over you, like a wave.

It will feel overwhelming at times, however this will pass.

I am not saying it will be easy or quick, it may be, it may not be.

'What you resist persists' - 'Let it go'
[I have made posts about this, search for them]
Author:  Gonzo [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Wow! Thanks a lot for this breakdown Peregrinus. Exactly what I was looking for! I will think about the things you wrote and then try to answer them.

Yesterday I already thought some more about the origin of these feelings myself. I came up with two things. I will post about it tomorrow. It's time to get some sleep now...

This is really interesting stuff! :)
Author:  Gonzo [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Answers to my own brainstorm session
OK, I came up with two things that might be causing these feelings. These are two separate things, but they are related to each other.

1. My own ego
2. Society

I will explain both of them.

Ego
In the brainstorm I wrote:
Quote:
I am not good enough..... Something wrong with me
Incompetent...... Society/friends blaming me
Left out...... Loser, outsider
Feeling of loss
What I meant is that when I don’t have sex or can’t get a particular girl, a part of me feels that I am not good enough, that I am a failure because of not getting sex. This is all ego! Somehow I am looking for perfection. This means that if a don’t get sex or a girl I will not feel perfect. My ego is presenting this image of perfection that I cannot possibly fulfill. It is impossible to get every girl that I like! Also it is not necessary at all to even be perfect to get a girl!

Nobody is perfect. Perfection is ridiculous. What is perfection anyway? For example: imagine if someone builds the perfect car. What is it perfect for? It is most probably only perfect for a specific purpose. It is less suitable for other purposes. And what if someone took this “perfect car” and changed something about it that made it even a little bit better. Then the first car wouldn’t be perfect anymore! This shows that perfection is ridiculous. That is why we have to accept the things we don’t like about ourselves and that we can’t change.

So I guess I will have to accept that it is not possible to get every girl that I like.

Society
Somehow society (maybe Christianity?) put shame into sex. Society makes us feel ashamed about sex, but also makes us feel ashamed about not getting sex!

I did some research on the internet and I found out that in “primitive” (hate that word) societies sex is usually encouraged from adolescence. In this way young people develop healthy sex lives and the procreation of the tribe is ensured. I believe this is somewhat different in or modern society.

In modern society boys usually get the following message:
• If you get a lot of girls you are a hero;
• However you are not supposed to cheat on them or hurt their feelings;
• Masturbation is bad. It’s for losers and it’s dirty.
What kind of confusing message is that! You are supposed to get a lot of girls, but somehow you are also supposed to get in a relationship with one of them and then you can’t go after other girls anymore, because that will hurt her feelings. And if you don’t get a girl you are not allowed to masturbate…

The message to girls is:
• Protect your virginity;
• Guys only want sex.
How are we supposed to get a girl if they only see us as oversexed creeps that are out to take their “holy” virginity? Also this explains why I feel girls would lose their innocence after sex. It’s because society told us so!

So we are basically screwed by society… Both men and women!

Ego and society
So how are ego and society related? I believe that because society tells us that you are a “real man” if you get a lot of girls, our ego feels hurt (not good enough, imcompetent, something wrong with me) if we don’t get a girl. Society gives us this feeling! (Actually ego might be created by society?)

If you don’t get a girl you are a failure… So that is why we end up chasing girls anxiously, with the girls seeing us as creepy losers they have to keep at bay!

--

So that’s what I came up with. I hope this makes some sense… Any comments are welcome off course!

Now on to answering the points that Peregrinus made.
Author:  Gonzo [ Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Answering Peregrinus' questions
Quote:
How would you react if people treated you like a possession?
To be really honest, at first I would feel honoured because I would feel they appreciated me. But that is just my ego again! After a while it would start to annoy me, it would irritate me. It would give me a really suffocating feeling like someone tries to tie me down.
Quote:
Would you like it?
Would you enjoy it?
How would it feel?
No, I wouldn't really like it or enjoy it. It would feel like a limitation of my freedom, almost like prison. It would feel like suffocating. Or like being a slave...
Oh my God! I've (subconsciously) been trying to make girls into slaves! Treating people like slaves can never be a good thing. No wonder they run away sometimes... :oops:
Note: of course I have not really been treating them like slaves ;), but they might have felt that vibe from me.
Quote:
Why do you see others as possessions?
This is a hard one to answer... Probably because of the time and emotional energy I invested in them. I don't feel like this towards girls I am not attracted to or that I didn't put emotional energy into. So part of the solution might be not putting so much emotional energy into girls/sex. Also I have to realise that me putting some time or energy into a girl doesn't make her obliged to do anything back. They make their own decisions.
Quote:
Do you feel in control or out of control?
I feel out of control, but I want to be in control! By wanting to be in control, I actually lose control! Just letting it go wouldn't necessarily give me control, but it would definitely feel a lot better / more stable / more relaxed.
Quote:
There is a lot in the above, my gut tells me it is all related. There is something deeper and common to the above.

Why?
I think because it is all about loss...?
Quote:
What do you feel was stolen from you? Why 'stolen'?
I feel a girl is stolen from me, or an opportunity to have sex. Off course I realize a girl cannot be stolen from me, because she is not my possession!
 Not my slave!
Why stolen? Because I put in mental and emotional energy. I have even felt like this when I approached a girl first and later another guy is making out with her. I feel she's mine, because I approached her first. Off course this is stupid! A girl can and will make her own decisions.
Quote:
A girl's biological reason for existing is to get pregnant and reproduce - how crazy is she now?
LOL. This actually made me laugh! :mrgreen: Off course. This is so true!
Quote:
Why are they losing their innocence? Are you also losing yours?
Because society tells us so! Off course I am not losing mine, so she is not losing hers. What is innocence anyway? Innocence means not taking part in a crime. Sex is not a crime! My God, I was viewing sex as a crime...
Quote:
She may be being hurt, her emotions are being aroused though.. Is it her emotions or the hurt which she likes?
First of all I don't know if she is going to be hurt. For all I know she might even end up hurting the guy!

Off course she likes the emotions, not the hurt. I should actually be happy for her that she can have these wonderful emotions. Even though it is not with me.

--

Now I want to go even deeper with this. What can I do? Is it a good idea to sit in a quiet room and try feeling these feelings? I usually have some time for this in the evening before I go to sleep. Would it be good to imagine a girl that I like to have sex with another guy? And then let this feeling wash all over me, until it's gone?

Gonzo
Author:  peregrinus [ Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Gonzo wrote:
Now I want to go even deeper with this.
Gonzo wrote:
sit in a quiet room and try feeling these feelings
There is plenty left in those questions for you to discover.

You can go as deep as you want to.

Take your time and resist forcing it, let it happen.
Author:  Gonzo [ Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
OK, thanks for your help so far. I will think some more about these questions and try to go deeper.

Gonzo
Author:  Gonzo [ Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Quote:
Quote:
Would you like it?
Would you enjoy it?
How would it feel?

No, I wouldn't really like it or enjoy it. It would feel like a limitation of my freedom, almost like prison. It would feel like suffocating. Or like being a slave...
Oh my God! I've (subconsciously) been trying to make girls into slaves! Treating people like slaves can never be a good thing. No wonder they run away sometimes... :oops:
Note: of course I have not really been treating them like slaves ;), but they might have felt that vibe from me.
Now that I read this back I realize I didn't put this right. What I meant is that I somehow considered girls to be mine, to be my possession. Actually I have never been running after girls a lot. But my vibe may have been needy and supplicating. People might pick this vibe up. However I usually try to keep my emotions in check and I try to keep a straight face when these feelings come up.

Gonzo
Author:  The Kidd!! [ Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Quote:
People subconsciously pick this vibe up.
Fix'd! :mrgreen:
Author:  StephenP [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
So I haven't read the replies yet, and I'm chompin' at the bit to read Grinus' response as well as the insights you gained,

I read a post here about someone (can't remember who) saying they started to worry about what their current girl would think of them if they broke up or something, and then A TOOL that he used to help. It was thinking about life a year and half from now when he is with some other hot chic how it will not matter whatsoever.

This reminded me, that in my growth (or maybe tearing down) to get to this place, I also used a TOOL to aid. That tool was whenever I would explore very emotional/dark themes, I would first of all allow myself to feel and experience them fully. And then I would force myself to laugh. I read about this somewhere, that even if you fake laughing, after a half a minute or so your brain actually releases the feel good chemicals that go along with authentic laughter, and you start to authentically laught. This seems to eventually start to change the auto-pilot response into something more playful and less serious reaction to the matter at hand.

Though now adays I find simple exploration, getting to the heart of the matter, and acceptance of the issue at hand works just as well,

Hope it helps
Author:  Gonzo [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Quote:
What do you feel was stolen from you? Why 'stolen'?
Somehow a warm feeling is stolen from me! Maybe even my mothers love, or lack there off... :shock:

I realize now that I have been seeking this "warm feeling" outside of me. Maybe I should look for it inside, by loving myself!
Author:  Gonzo [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Quote:
I read a post here about someone (can't remember who) saying they started to worry about what their current girl would think of them if they broke up or something, and then A TOOL that he used to help. It was thinking about life a year and half from now when he is with some other hot chic how it will not matter whatsoever.
Cool tip! I sometimes try to imagine how many women there actually are on this planet. There 6,9 billion people on earth. That is roughly 3,45 billion women. If only 0,1% of these women would be attracted to me, that is still 3,450,000 women. That's a lot! :mrgreen:
Quote:
This reminded me, that in my growth (or maybe tearing down) to get to this place, I also used a TOOL to aid. That tool was whenever I would explore very emotional/dark themes, I would first of all allow myself to feel and experience them fully. And then I would force myself to laugh. I read about this somewhere, that even if you fake laughing, after a half a minute or so your brain actually releases the feel good chemicals that go along with authentic laughter, and you start to authentically laught. This seems to eventually start to change the auto-pilot response into something more playful and less serious reaction to the matter at hand.
I am definitely going to try this! I have been practising to feel these feelings for a couple of days now. Already it is getting slightly harder to find them within myself. Also it is getting slightly easier to switch from these bad/dark feelings to a more positive logical state. Now I only have to be able to do this in the real world. This is going to be a lot harder...

Gonzo
Author:  Alchemist [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Gonzo wrote:
I realize now that I have been seeking this "warm feeling" outside of me. Maybe I should look for it inside, by loving myself!
I think someone here said any feeling you seek from women we should endeavor to seek from ourselves, we don't need them for any feeling of completion or confidence.

Even if zero women were attracted to you, you'd still be alive and able to function in life.
Author:  Sniper [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Gonzo wrote:
I realize now that I have been seeking this "warm feeling" outside of me. Maybe I should look for it inside, by loving myself!
you do that...
if you seek a woman for that she will always have control over you.
Author:  fufe [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Introspection / brainstorm
Gonzo wrote:
Quote:
I read a post here about someone (can't remember who) saying they started to worry about what their current girl would think of them if they broke up or something, and then A TOOL that he used to help. It was thinking about life a year and half from now when he is with some other hot chic how it will not matter whatsoever.
Cool tip! I sometimes try to imagine how many women there actually are on this planet. There 6,9 billion people on earth. That is roughly 3,45 billion women. If only 0,1% of these women would be attracted to me, that is still 3,450,000 women. That's a lot! :mrgreen:
It's tool more about getting distance from problems within the relationship, to not get attached and to solve them without attachment and emotional reactions which lead to unreasonable unlogical actions.. Although I've took it too much seriously and was too cold and too un-emotional, so use at your own risk.. Find the balance, I was told
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