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 Post subject: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:28 pm 
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Kidd - in this post you mention subconscious seeds.

http://www.naturalfreedom.info/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=163

Can you explain what are those "seeds" you're planting? I imagine it has something to do with eye contact, subtle language, but I'll let you explain. Thank you, kind sir, in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:42 am 
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This is kinda hard to explain. Basically, you respond to subconscious stimulus in kind, whether you are initiating or reciprocating. It is usually more effective when reciprocating though, because if you are reciprocating, that means that she is initiating, which is always a good thing. Just mirror her...and of course these things are usually NON VERBAL, with the exception of the occasional well timed, "You'll see one day....", and other such phrases of that nature used for foreshadowing purposes.

Simple things like touching her back subtly after she touches you...and also LIKE how she touches you (though not immediately), strong eye contact, invade her personal space ever so gradually...these things will resonate with her on a subconscious level that will not be immediately apparent. Sometimes these things take a long time to manifest without an accelerant. All an accelerant is in these cases is you taking stock of what you observe and acting on it.

Like, if I'm around a woman and she is in my space, stroking her neck, playing with her necklace, and constantly touching me, if I decide (and it usually always is up to YOU) to, I might just put my finger up to her lips and start kissing her. This is kind of an extreme example, but nothing that I haven't done before.

How long can it take WITHOUT adding accelerant?

I have a girl-friend (plutonic...never even held hands) that I've known since 1998. She lives a few states away from me and currently is working on her Doctorate. I told her back in 1998 that I knew that she was attracted to me (this is right before I learned it's better NOT to consciously address subconscious stimuli), and she laughed it off and said I was nuts. She then got married in 2005...that lasted about a year. Her mother told her straight up that she shoulda married me...and I was there with my girlfriend at the time. My girlfriend could also pick up on the fact that her mom was upset that not only was I not the groom, but that I had a girlfriend. My ex hates this chick LOL! Of course, through all of this she just thinks everyone is crazy and we remain very good friends.

Anyhoo, we talk maybe 3-4 times a year and catch up. She tells me she loves me, but it is in the purest of friendship sense. Then, out of the blue, she has a dream about me 2 nights ago. In her dream, she wakes up and I am laying next to her in bed. Her initial reaction is, "HELL NO!", and she starts literally kicking an pushing me out of the bed (she also said I was snoring...LOUD. LOL!). While this is going on, she happened to look down and saw a golden wedding band on my hand. So then she was like, "DOUBLE HELL NO!", because she doesn't mess with married men. So, eventually she gives up because I am not rousing nor budging. So, as she rolls over, she happens to notice that on her left hand, she has on a matching wedding band with an engagement ring. Then she wakes up.

She tells her mother about the dream, and her mom just looks at her. Why?

Because her mom, like myself, has known that her daughter has been in love with me for almost 13 years.

Why did I never decide to accelerate it?

Because I have a tremendous amount of respect for this woman (and she is not unattractive by anyones definition), and the timing was never right (i.e. either she was involved or getting married, or I was involved, or we lived to far away). Ironically, I agreed to come out to visit her after I graduate for Thanksgiving this year about 5 months ago. Coincidence?

You know me...NOTHING is EVER a coincidence. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:56 am 
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When you plant a seed, you usually plant it under the surface.

Someone looking at the surface would never see it is there.

Some seeds are nonviable and never germinate so do not make it to the surface.

Some are viable and start growing under the surface, not so that you would notice from the surface, it is there growing away, hidden from view.

Until the moment it makes it to the surface, it breaks through and starts growing really fast as the sun hits it. Then suddenly everyone realises there must have been a seed there, it is not a seed anymore it is the start of a proper plant.

VERBAL (overt) = surface
VERBAL (indirect or covert) = under surface
non verbal = under surface

conscious = surface
subconscious/unconscious = under surface

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In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Yes, great explanation - so plant your "seed" everywhere and soon enough the garden will be in full bloom. Some will die, some will grow strong, others may go away for a season only to turn. Like an imp-ish little gardener planting seed everywhere :twisted:

I have already begun planting in my hometown where I'm living for a while, and tomorrow night's the first night out, I waste no time.

Ah I love this place.

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"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." -Master Yoda


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:02 am 
The Kidd!! wrote:
This is kinda hard to explain. Basically, you respond to subconscious stimulus in kind, whether you are initiating or reciprocating. It is usually more effective when reciprocating though, because if you are reciprocating, that means that she is initiating, which is always a good thing. Just mirror her...and of course these things are usually NON VERBAL, with the exception of the occasional well timed, "You'll see one day....", and other such phrases of that nature used for foreshadowing purposes.

Simple things like touching her back subtly after she touches you...and also LIKE how she touches you (though not immediately), strong eye contact, invade her personal space ever so gradually...these things will resonate with her on a subconscious level that will not be immediately apparent. Sometimes these things take a long time to manifest without an accelerant. All an accelerant is in these cases is you taking stock of what you observe and acting on it.

Like, if I'm around a woman and she is in my space, stroking her neck, playing with her necklace, and constantly touching me, if I decide (and it usually always is up to YOU) to, I might just put my finger up to her lips and start kissing her. This is kind of an extreme example, but nothing that I haven't done before.

How long can it take WITHOUT adding accelerant?

I have a girl-friend (plutonic...never even held hands) that I've known since 1998. She lives a few states away from me and currently is working on her Doctorate. I told her back in 1998 that I knew that she was attracted to me (this is right before I learned it's better NOT to consciously address subconscious stimuli), and she laughed it off and said I was nuts. She then got married in 2005...that lasted about a year. Her mother told her straight up that she shoulda married me...and I was there with my girlfriend at the time. My girlfriend could also pick up on the fact that her mom was upset that not only was I not the groom, but that I had a girlfriend. My ex hates this chick LOL! Of course, through all of this she just thinks everyone is crazy and we remain very good friends.

Anyhoo, we talk maybe 3-4 times a year and catch up. She tells me she loves me, but it is in the purest of friendship sense. Then, out of the blue, she has a dream about me 2 nights ago. In her dream, she wakes up and I am laying next to her in bed. Her initial reaction is, "HELL NO!", and she starts literally kicking an pushing me out of the bed (she also said I was snoring...LOUD. LOL!). While this is going on, she happened to look down and saw a golden wedding band on my hand. So then she was like, "DOUBLE HELL NO!", because she doesn't mess with married men. So, eventually she gives up because I am not rousing nor budging. So, as she rolls over, she happens to notice that on her left hand, she has on a matching wedding band with an engagement ring. Then she wakes up.

She tells her mother about the dream, and her mom just looks at her. Why?

Because her mom, like myself, has known that her daughter has been in love with me for almost 13 years.

Why did I never decide to accelerate it?

Because I have a tremendous amount of respect for this woman (and she is not unattractive by anyones definition), and the timing was never right (i.e. either she was involved or getting married, or I was involved, or we lived to far away). Ironically, I agreed to come out to visit her after I graduate for Thanksgiving this year about 5 months ago. Coincidence?

You know me...NOTHING is EVER a coincidence. 8-)
OMFG!.......I've always been wondering about how to speed up interactions. This takes not being staunch to a WHOLE different level. I've always been tacitly against initiating things, notice the word tacitly. However, I've become more vocal about initiating things with women. For example, the thread I was in with Resonance where I told him to run up the alley. I was just forming my ideas about it.

So, it's accelerant huh?

I learned how to plant seeds, how to give space, and some other things I can't recall. However, these two have been on my mind as of late.

I'm glad I suffered through ONE thread of gruel earlier this night and made a string of posts that I'll have to come back to soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:24 am 
If the seed is something subconscious like an idea or action and the water is something like space. What is the sun?

Is the man the sun?

I know we have metaphors about age and shining brightly.

Meraki, I would definitely like to hear your input too.


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Slim Titan wrote:
If the seed is something subconscious like an idea or action and the water is something like space. What is the sun?

Is the man the sun?

I know we have metaphors about age and shining brightly.

Meraki, I would definitely like to hear your input too.
Here's my equivalences_

The seed is your message.
The soil is her subconsious.
The sun is the space.
The water is your availability.

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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:57 pm 
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Yeah, I think there's probably multiple ways you could parse this metaphor, but I'm not sure we really need to define everything too exactingly.

The way I see it, this metaphor is all about being open. Planting the seed is communicating that you are open to something happening with the girl.

You're not saying you need something to happen, or that you'll try to make something happen, that you're going to chase or pursue or put in effort. But you're sending her a little message that the door is unlocked if she wants to put the effort in to turn the handle, push it open, and come on inside. Here's a story to illustrate planting a seed:

Here's an example. There was this girl who is in my extended social circle. I hang out with her housemate every so often, and I was friends with her on FB, but she's not very active there, and I didn't have her phone number or anything like that. So last summer this girl starts working one of the produce booths at the weekly farmers market. I already go to the market every week, so I start making a point to swing by her booth and say hi. I can tell she's choosing me fairly clearly, but its all subconscious things like body position, pupil dilation, hairs on her arm raising, her willingness to drop whatever she was doing when I walk up to give me her full attention, etc. I don't know if she was conscious of her response to me or not, but I would guess probably not.

So, maybe 4th week of my swinging by her booth, she's out in front of the booth tidying things up instead of inside behind the table, and so she gives me a hug when I walk up. I hold the hug a little bit too long, and as I'm releasing the hug, I let my hands slide gently, caressingly down her back and over her hips as I bring them back to my sides. Subtle, but unmistakable. All those choosing signs I laid out were going crazy - like her eyes were super wide open, hair on her arms all standing up, etc. And she had a hard time formulating a sentence for about 10 seconds until she got her wits back. I go on and have my little weekly 5 minute chat with her, very inane, and then I leave like normal.

The next couple weeks are back to the same routine as before, but she's clearly more excited to see me than she was previously. 3rd week out from the hug she starts giving me some of the veggies from her booth for free. She just asks me, "hey, do you like tomatoes?" and then she stuffs a pint of cherry tomatoes in my bag. Maybe 2 more weeks and she asks me if I have any plans for later after the market is closed. I already was meetings friends for dinner, but I get the info on what her schedule is like on market evenings (ie. when she's done with work, etc). The next week I don't schedule anything for that evening, and she asks me again what my plans are for after the market. I tell her nothing, and she invites me to meet her and some of her other friends for some tacos after the market is over. While getting tacos, we start talking about favorite foods or something like that, and she drops, "oh, I'll have to make mine for you," in a general, generic kind of way with no specific timeframe on it. I respond, "oh yeah? well, when is that going to happen? Friday?" And she says yeah, that would work. So I go over to her house on friday, she makes me dinner, and I assume you can figure it out from there.

So, the seed was giving her the subtle but still clear signal that there was possibility there. Then the combination of space and the continued chatting every week gave her enough time to realize consciously that she was into it, and then gave her probably a couple chances to build up enough courage to actually ask me to hang out. So the space and the continued regular contact were the water, sunlight, warm temperatures needed for germination and finally to break through the soil and into the air.

One of the biggest keys to planting seeds, in my opinion, is letting go of control. You don't try to control the seeds. You just plant them, make the conditions right for them to germinate, and then you see if they do. If they do, great. If they don't, also great.

---------------------

On the other hand, I think the accelerant is mostly about sticking points. I've written about this before I believe, but basically the idea is that there are girls who have serious sticking points for some reason, and applying accelerants is helping the girl by breaking through her sticking point for her.

Here's an example. There was this girl (we'll call her J) who lived across the country, but her best friend from growing up is in my social circle and we hang out probably 2-3 times per week. So J sees pictures of me on FB very regularly, sees the parties I throw, etc, and she's jocking me from across the country before even meeting me (although I had no idea of that). So this past spring J finalized her divorce from a total symp, and she decides to move out to my city to live with her best friend.

So, within two weeks of moving out here, J makes sure to hang out with me, shove her (rather large) tits in my face, etc, and she starts chatting with me on FB, asks for my number, and then starts texting me, etc. She's pretty blunt and forward (she's 31 and divorced, after all), so she asks me out on a date. She swings by my house and picks me up and we go get some drinks. After bouncing around a couple bars, she suggests we head back to my place. When we get there, I don't even invite her in, she just parks her car and makes a beeline for my front door.

So, we're sitting on my couch chatting, and she's slowly creeping closer and closer, kind of nestling up under my arm as I lean back with my arms over the back of the couch. As she gets closer, she starts putting her hand on my leg, on my pec, on my shoulder, etc as I'm talking. She's staring at my lips very clearly and quite often.

I decide that this was such an easy home run that I think it would be worth doing a little experiment before hitting it out of the park (in the name of science!). So I just wait. I mirror her, and send every positive signal back at her, but I just wait for her to go for the kiss. And it was fascinating to watch her demeanor. She started getting all excited, and visibly frustrated even. She keeps coming closer and closer, till her face is only like 5 inches away from mine. I leave these long pregnant pauses in the conversation to give her an opportunity to go for the kiss, but she just can't do it.

She's unconsciously rubbing her thighs against each other, putting on hand on her boob while her other hand caresses my leg, and almost vibrating with sexual energy, but there was something blocking her from making that move. So after a full hour of chatting on the couch, I finally just lean over a couple inches and giver her a slow little kiss on the lips. No tongue, no hand on the back of her head or her face or under her chin, just the most basic kiss for like 3 seconds and then I pull back an inch. As soon as our lips separate, she's grabbed my head with both her hands and is pulling me in and practically chewing my face off. She hops up and straddles me, and starts taking her own clothes off as well as mine as fast as she can, etc. And I think you can imagine what happens from there.

Obviously this is a very blatant example, but her sticking point was clearly the first kiss. She pushed the interaction at every other step all the way, but that one step was one she could not do on her own. So, my accelerant was just to relieve her of her sticking point.

Its easy to misinterpret accelerant as giving permission to pursue. Thats not the case. Accelerant is where a girl has already mentally taken steps C, D, and E, but for some reason she can't get over step B. So you just take step B for her, and then she's off to the races again, pushing the interaction through steps C, D, and E.

If you put some energy in to take step B, and then you have to put some more energy in to take step C, and then even more to take step D, then thats not using accelerant. Thats trying to make something happen, instead of letting things happen as they will.

Hope this has been useful.

_________________
"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:49 am 
Meraki, what is a verbal seed that you have planted/how do I speak indirectly/how do I plant a verbal seed?

In the first case, how is the caress a seed instead of accelerant?

In the second case, it is obvious that what you did was an accelerant with the limited knowledge that I have of seeds etc.

What makes the two situations different though?


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:46 am 
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Time to think. ;-) Give me what you think the answers are and I will let you know how I see it.

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"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:37 am 
I might say, "I'm free on x day," without provocation to get in her mind that we should me up.

I don't know what I would say to plant a seed for sex.

In the first case, you placed yourself in her vicinity and manipulated the environment to your will to see if she wanted you. Maybe she hadn't gone through any steps in her mind and was just being friendly.

She reminds me of this girl at my school that's a freshman. She has guys up her ass chasing her and she always makes it a point to say hi to me. I wrote about her earlier. The space and time gap seem to have erased any perceptions of staunchness about me in her mind. She sees that I'm unattached. Yet, she doesn't do a damn thing. So, there is no way tell where her head is at because I lack information. I've only reciprocated.

In the first case, your action is to get her to see if she wants you to invite a possibility.

You give her information about yourself for her to digest.

Edit: I'm making a logical leap somewhere in here. I what I think are the right conclusions, but something is still missing in the first case.

In the second case, the woman is clearly interested in you and just wants to think that you'll put in some work. My guess is that she doesn't want to feel like a total slut. However, that justification is making me think I still have some PUA garbage stuck in my brain. Women don't really care about that.

In any case, the second case reminds me of an aha moment I had with a woman this past fall. The woman 32, one year older that your second situation at 31, had bought me a drink. She sat down with me and told me all about herself. She wants to stay, yet, she was just about to leave when I caught her before she left because I knew she was choosing. Thus, she wanted to be there for me. So, I ask her to come back to my room. She says she doesn't want to hook up, but she asks me how close my place is. That makes me think NOW not at the time then that she was already committed to being in my room. I tell her she has a hard decision to make after some more talking and kiss her. She then grabs my hand and doesn't let go of it until we get to her car. We're still drinking beers. She wanted to think that she was mine before she entered the room, but she was already in the room in her mind.

So, the difference is that the woman needs to think that she is yours with accelerant.

With a seed the woman is thinking it is a possibility after you give her information.

That's the biggest bright line I can come up with right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:11 am 
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Enjoyable post Meraki.
Meraki wrote:
One of the biggest keys to planting seeds, in my opinion, is letting go of control. You don't try to control the seeds. You just plant them, make the conditions right for them to germinate, and then you see if they do. If they do, great. If they don't, also great.
Spot on.

_________________
In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject.He keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions. Perfection is not when there is no more to add,but no more to take away.


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 Post subject: Re: Subconscious seeds
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:43 pm 
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Ok, first of all, non-verbal seeds and verbal seeds are a bit different. Same underlying principle, but different applications.

So with the farmers market girl, I never verbally planted any seeds. It was all communicated with body language and physical actions. If you listened to all the little conversations I had with her, they were always pretty mundane. Basically I was occupying her brain with this rather bland conversation while I was using my body to communicate directly to her body.

One thing about seeds is that you want to communicate your openness to getting together with a girl using less communication rather than more. You obviously want to make sure she gets the message, but preferably you want to do it subtly. If she doesn't get your subtle communication, then you get keep getting a little more overt and a little bit more, and a little more, until she "gets it." You should be able to tell when a girl "gets it," even if its still on the unconscious level. Like if you were to stop time and interview her, she might say, "There's just this feeling I get with Slim that I can't quite totally put my finger on."

In some ways, it's easier to plant seeds using body language because you have a little more leeway - you can actually be more overt and direct with body language, whereas with words there's a finer line that if you cross it, it becomes uncouth. If you're giving a girl all the non-verbal communication you can muster and she's still not getting it, then you need to move to dropping verbal hints. But again, dance around it first, be indirect.
Quote:
I might say, "I'm free on x day," without provocation to get in her mind that we should me up.
Yeah, might work, kinda depends on how you say it I guess. Also, you're kinda jumping straight to scheduling. Maybe first just insinuate getting together. Something like, "oh, you're into jazz? I love going to jazz shows..." See how she takes it, maybe she'll suggest that you go listen to some jazz together. Then you can move to scheduling.

Or with the accelerant girl J, I planted a verbal seed over FB. Here's how it happened; J moved to my city, and moved in with my friend (we'll call her "C", the one I met J through). Within a week, J and C moved into a new place. C posted a pic of J on FB holding up some cleaning products in one hand and a beer in the other with the caption, "cleaning the bathroom in my old place so we can move into our new place!" So, I saw this pic, and commented, "Does J want to come over and clean my bathroom?" J commented back, "I'll stop at your house next Meraki! I'm expensive though!" I responded: "How much is expensive? One bottle of beer? Two?" She commented, "Two and a half." Then I responded: "Done. You can even have the extra half and make it an even three..."

Then the conversation moved to private messages, and later when she asked me out on the date, she directly addressed the bathroom cleaning, saying "so if I come pick you up, should I build in some time to clean your bathroom before we head out?"

I didn't make her clean my bathroom, although now I kinda wish I had. :twisted:
Slim wrote:
I don't know what I would say to plant a seed for sex.
Too specific. Planting seeds is all about subtly communicating that you are into it, and if she's into it, then you would be down to get it on.

Once you are already hooking up with a woman on a regular basis, I suppose you could plant more specific seeds, like subtly communicating to her that you love blowjobs or something like that. There's all sorts of ways you could do this.
Slim wrote:
Maybe she hadn't gone through any steps in her mind and was just being friendly.
Irrelevant whether she had consciously gone through it in her mind or not. I noticed all the unconscious signals she was giving me like pupils dilated, open body language, hair standing up on her arms, duration of eye contact, etc, which all showed that she was into me. If she consciously knew it or not, it doesn't really matter. Eventually she would go from unconscious to conscious (assuming she doesn't stop choosing me for some reason), and it will probably happen faster if I plant some seeds, but maybe not.
Slim wrote:
I'm making a logical leap somewhere in here. I what I think are the right conclusions, but something is still missing in the first case.
Here's as straightforward as I can explain it. I see girl, and I decide that she's cute and from what I know about her she's qualified. I interact with her in a very cordial, friendly way, and while I'm doing that I observe girl, and I see that she is giving me unconscious or semi-conscious signals that she is into me ("jocking on the subtle tip"). I stack sufficient evidence. When she's out in front of her booth, I take the opportunity to inject a little sensual sexuality into our interaction just for a moment. I see she responds to it nicely (pupils, hair, eye contact, unable to speak for a moment), so I assume that my message has been received, and I let her marinate on it for a while. Our interactions escalate (she gives me gifts, touches me more often, I mirror her level of touch, etc). Eventually she brings up the idea of us doing something together, and we make it happen.

Do you still feel like you're missing something?
Slim wrote:
She reminds me of this girl at my school that's a freshman. She has guys up her ass chasing her and she always makes it a point to say hi to me. I wrote about her earlier. The space and time gap seem to have erased any perceptions of staunchness about me in her mind. She sees that I'm unattached. Yet, she doesn't do a damn thing. So, there is no way tell where her head is at because I lack information. I've only reciprocated.
I don't remember what you wrote about this girl, but from what you wrote here it sounds to me like your message of being open to something happening with her hasn't been fully received. Or it was a mixed message and was muddled by your former staunchness. I would take the next reasonable opportunity to inject a little bit of unconscious communication into your interaction. Do something subtle and non-verbal but yet clear to indicate that you like the girl and are open to hooking up with her.
Slim wrote:
In the second case, the woman is clearly interested in you and just wants to think that you'll put in some work. My guess is that she doesn't want to feel like a total slut. However, that justification is making me think I still have some PUA garbage stuck in my brain. Women don't really care about that.
Yeah, I don't think thats it. I don't think she cares about "being a slut." And I don't think it was about wanting me to "put in some work." It was just her being super nervous and unable to make the move. Like did you ever have the experience of wanting to do something but being paralyzed? Like maybe jumping off a high diving board or a rock into a lake or something like that? Where you're looking down, and you know you want to jump and you know you'll be fine, but you're just paralyzed and you can't do it. And then maybe somebody else comes along and tells you to jump on the count of 3 and they count for you and you are able to do it. I think thats where she was.
Slim wrote:
So, the difference is that the woman needs to think that she is yours with accelerant.

With a seed the woman is thinking it is a possibility after you give her information.
Sounds pretty correct.

_________________
"The society gives you a map; I give you only freedom. The society gives you character, I give you only consciousness. The society teaches you to live a conformist life ... I give you an invitation to go on an adventure." - Osho


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